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Capes slipping after rinse stage

Discussion in 'Tanning' started by bluff top taxidermy, Aug 29, 2017.

  1. Cj I've talked to a lot of big tanning names and they are all in agreement that the tan would not be the culprit, problem lies somewhere else and I've heard nothing but good things about what I'm using and have ordered 2 separate batches of tan just to make sure it wasn't just a bad tan. Cyclone, pickle is pretty basic, 3oz of citric or 1/2 fl. Oz of no harm per gallon and 1# of salt, so you think maybe try to go heavier with the citric and just even the p.h out with baking soda? Last few batches I've been doing 12 gallons with 3 capes in a batch. Hair seems to always be locked in pretty well when I actually put the tan on, so if the pickle was the culprit you don't think the hair would do this while it's in the pickle?
     
  2. 3bears

    3bears Well-Known Member

    5,665
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    Here's my take on this, not that I know what I'm talking about but, either the damage is already done, prior to or during fleshing or you are not getting your capes pickled well, your pickle isn't big enough for 3 capes to free float, don't weigh them down. It appears that they are holding the hair in during the pickle but then you soak them in water causing the epidermis to swell and open around the follicles letting them fall out.
     

  3. Rhino

    Rhino Too many irons in the fire will put the fire out!

    Ok, I give!

    I think Krowtan might be a good option for you.

    Its just to me, sorry if im wrong, but, after literally months of this "thing", it is starting to look like we are having our chain yanked!! JMHO

    This nothing more than a "well thought out " set-up" from some nut with an axe to grind! Really a shame too.
    We have all been unwilling participants.
     

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  4. Your giving in after only a few months , awl come on ! Lol
     
  5. cyclone

    cyclone Posts: 400001


    DON'T GET BICARB ANYWHERE NEAR YOUR PICKLE!
    You want the full strength of the acid to pickle your capes. I'm saying use your citric and then drop the pH even further with safety acid. The citric will take care of metal ions, the safety drops the pH below 2. No adjustments needed until the basification step after pickling is complete.

    How are you measuring pH? exact details?
     
  6. Ya I'm yanking your chain, that's why I spent 30 minutes on the phone with you before I even posted this looking for other options, that's why I spent 20 minutes on the phone with Justin, and countless hours with other guys lol. Appreciate everybody's advice. Cyclone I just fleshed 2 this morn and are salted and draining now, just mixed 10 gallons of water, 30oz of citric acid and 10lbs of salt, ph is at 1.5 I use the 0-3 papers from McKenzie. I know once I add the capes to the pickle the the p.h is gonna change drastically the 1st 24hrs, you think I should add the safety acid to bring the p.h back down then? Or stick with citric?
     
  7. cyclone

    cyclone Posts: 400001

    Let's put it this way.
    Option A: Add 1/2 oz safety per gallon AND 30oz citric up front. The pH is not going to drop lower than what the safety acid will take it, trust me... add 1 cape per 12 gallons and go..float, no weights..NO BICARB anywhere near..



    option B:
    30oz citric now plus whatever amount you add after 24 hrs, say that's another 10 oz (for instance) add that 10 extra up front. Total 40 oz up front, if in fact 10oz extra is what you use to bring it back down. AGAIN NO BICARB anywhere near..
     
  8. cyclone

    cyclone Posts: 400001

    Just a WAG but I think you may be trying to micro manage the pH levels. Don't worry about that for a pickle. pH will drop like a rock with just a little acid in pure water. While pH is important for hide stability it is the total concentration of acid in a pickle that keeps pH levels stable.

    Out for the weekend, got huntin to do.
    Good luck.
     
  9. Tanglewood Taxidermy

    Tanglewood Taxidermy Well-Known Member

    Is it possible that you are making false cuts on the round knife when shaving the cape?
     
  10. Update- tried getting rid of the rinsing stage completely after tanning, I tan, fold skin to skin and let lay for 3 hours then hang with a fan hair said out for 3-4 hours and put a piece of cardboard between the skin to circulate air so it can breathe and kept hair out so skin stays wet, after that's done I turn inside out and tumble capes in towels in a dryer that I unhooked the heating element on, tumble for 15 minutes and towels soak up the tan and cape still stays wet and pliable then I freeze. Thaw out and mount and they turn out awesome! So 100% it is the rinsing stage that was causing the problems, dunno what it is but I'll keep doing it this way. Thanks everybody for taking the time to give some advice
     
  11. Steve Rotramel

    Steve Rotramel We got some radical rebels in this county!

    The description of the hair behavior sounds like too much citric to me.

    If you put in just enough to bring the pH down to 1.7, and then add another pound, the pH will change very little (it can only go so low). It can seem to us that the extra acid has little effect.

    So some of us are on the scrimpy side and try to use as little as possible, and others have the "couple extra scoops won't hurt" policy.

    I think you had competing issues. Too much rinsing will cause the hair to slip, and too much acid (most of my experience is with citric, but I have heard that formic will do the same thing) after the low pH has been reached will cause the hair to behave according to your description, which includes curling, puffing, shedding, and then slipping.

    My guess is that you first had slippage as a result of the rinsing, and then on subsequent batches started adding extra acid to try to prevent the slippage, which only made the problem worse.

    Best to use "just enough" acid to reach your target pH, and no more.

    Also, I never rinse at all after complete rehydration.
     
  12. If you are using 1/2 oz. of safety acid/Mckenzie acid, like the instructions call for. That is your problem. I have always used 1 oz. /gal. of water. I do not salt cape. The cape will draw in the acid overnight if you only used 1/2 oz. / gal. and leave your water with a higher ph. It all depends on the ph of your water to begin with. You need to experiment. I do check daily with ph papers, just to make sure. I do get hair curl on some capes, but I think it's damaged hair follicles to begin with. I also use towels, but after reading this post, I may resort to just draining.
    I am talking about whitetail deer, but could be anything.
    Hope this helps.
     
  13. hounddoggy

    hounddoggy Member

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    In every post I've ever read of people having slip issues, I always notice an added tweak or added step.
    I've learned that a lot of slip issues actually begin before the tanning process begins.
    I don't know what condition your capes are in or how you flesh your capes. Instead of trying to figure out what may be causing you trouble, I'm just going to share my process.
    FLESH:
    I was taught old school style by a d.p.'r so flesh means completely removing all meat. It means turning everything. It means removing all meat. I do this with paint store grade razor blades and a pvc pipe. It takes 45 minutes.

    SALT: rub it in good and hang- I don't roll them up some do. Next day shake off result and hang.

    REHYDRATe:
    Put dry or semi dry capes in clean cool water- takes a few hours to 7 hrs depends on how dry.

    PICKLe:
    Mix a 7 gallon pickle. Why 7? It works for me. If I'm doing two in same tote I'll mix a 11 gallon pickle. Stir and make sure pH shoulda
    NEUTTRALIZE:
    Pull capes fro pickle. Mix neutralize bath in clean tote. Throw skins in for 30 minutes. I was told that the tan seeks the more acidic inner layer of skin and not to over neutralize. Bs? Maybe I don't know but at 30 minutes I pull my skins. Quick rinse and the I roll up in towel for a few minutes. Skin side only. I get skin fairly dry brush on trubond. I've never ever had an issue. After I tan I either rinse dry and mount or freeze with tan still on cape. I let tan sit on cape for 4-6 hours. Never have let them dry. Never had a cape slip with turbo d or McKenzie tan.
    Good luck.
     
  14. hounddoggy

    hounddoggy Member

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    P.S.
    I use 1lb salt per gal and 1/2 ounces after acid. It's worked for me for a long time.