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Correct Way To Skin A Wing

Discussion in 'Bird Taxidermy' started by Bruce M, Mar 26, 2020.

  1. Fallenscale

    Fallenscale Well-Known Member

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    At this point I feel bad for Bruce there so much talk on this but it is important.

    If you mount your own federally protected migrating birds that are legal to hunt you do not need a migratory bird permit.

    I feel he doesn't need one for this owl as well if he has/had the proper permits as long as he donates after said taxidermy is finished but this is my option, a grey area.

    I'm sure Bruce will let us know after he contact the DNR officer the gave permit. Which IMO the place to start.
     
    Bruce M likes this.
  2. Wildthings

    Wildthings Well-Known Member

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    Socal, yes it says that on the permit but that permit is referring to working on some else's birds other than your own
     

  3. Wildthings

    Wildthings Well-Known Member

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    Here is the link to the FAQ for Migratory Bird Permit.

    FAQ

    Question #3 is quite interesting:
    3. Can I mount migratory birds other than waterfowl? Yes. Protected nongame birds such as songbirds, hawks, and owls can be legally brought to a taxidermist by game wardens, Federal agents, or holders of appropriate State and Federal permits. Once mounted, these birds can be legally possessed only by public scientific and educational institutions or individuals or facilities that have a valid Special Purpose Possession Dead permit. Personal possession of nongame birds is prohibited. English sparrows, common starlings, and feral pigeons (rock doves) are not native to the United States and are not protected by Federal law. (See 50 CFR 21.11)
    4. Do I need a State permit to perform taxidermy on migratory game birds? Your permit is not valid unless you also are in compliance with State requirements. This means that if your State requires you to have a permit to perform taxidermy on migratory game birds, you must hold a valid State permit in order for your Federal permit to be valid. It is your responsibility to make sure you comply with State permit requirements.
     
    Vulpes Vulpes, magicmick and Bruce M like this.
  4. Tanglewood Taxidermy

    Tanglewood Taxidermy Well-Known Member

    Thanks Wildthings. That's how I understood it.
     
    Bruce M likes this.
  5. Tanglewood Taxidermy

    Tanglewood Taxidermy Well-Known Member


    There is no donating it after taxidermy is done though. The instructions of the law according to the wording of the permit clearly state that the entity that wants an owl done get all the permits also and then present you (who must also have all of your permits) with the owl to do the taxidermy for them. It doesn't work with in the law if you acquire an owl on your own and then donate it. The entity is your client.
     
  6. Fallenscale

    Fallenscale Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with wild things that no federal permit is needed to Taxidermy others water fowl.
     
  7. socalmountainman

    socalmountainman Northwestern School of Taxidermy - Class of '73

    I was talking about Bruce's owl.
     
  8. Tanglewood Taxidermy

    Tanglewood Taxidermy Well-Known Member

    Fallenscale, Wildthings clearly showed that you DID indeed need a federal permit IF you are doing taxidermy on legally hunted migratory birds for others and that you DID NOT need one IF you are working on your own birds for yourself.
     
    Wildthings and Bruce M like this.
  9. Fallenscale

    Fallenscale Well-Known Member

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    Okay going back to his post #60 I was mistaked thought he was saying you didnt need a permit to taxidermy other migratory Birds as I stated in the post you reply to. I been say that all along.
     
  10. Fallenscale

    Fallenscale Well-Known Member

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    One must remember Bruce is the person who found and is the one whom class room/school this will be displayed. As I said it's a grey area before.
     
  11. Tanglewood Taxidermy

    Tanglewood Taxidermy Well-Known Member

    Actually Fallenscale, there is no grey area. In question 3 of the migratory bird permit FAQ in post 63, it states that; Protected nongame birds such as song birds,hawks and owls can legally be brought to a taxidermist by a game warden, federal agent or holders of appropriate state AND federal permits.

    Bruce is neither a game warden, a federal agent or a holder of both appropriate state AND federal permits.

    It goes on to say that; Once mounted, these birds can be legally possessed by public scientific and educational institutions or facilities that have a valid Special Purpose Possession Dead permit.

    Bruce is not a public scientific or educational institute and he is not a facility that has a valid special purpose possession dead permit. He is not an acting agent who is a holder of appropriate state and federal permits for one of those either. The school would have to get all the permits and take it to Bruce to mount providing he had all the permits both state and federal.

    Finally it states; Personal possession of nongame birds is prohibited. So Bruce could never have possessed that owl except to mount it providing he had all the paper work that is required. Then it would be the schools to do with it what they wanted and he would have no say over it.

    He found it, yes. Legally he would have had to contact a game warden and have them take possession of it and then the school would have had to fill out all the paperwork and apply for the permits. Once that was taken care of, then either the warden or the school would present the owl to Bruce and assuming he had all the permits, he would mount it and present it back to the school and at that point he would have no say as to what the school did with it.

    As I said, no grey area.
     
    Bruce M likes this.
  12. Bruce M

    Bruce M Member

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    I told you that I would update you when I finished conducting my research. I don't know you and you don't know me but if you did you would know that I keep my word. I have placed calls to three special agents over the last three days and none have returned my call as of this afternoon at 4:15 PM. And I'm going to call them tomorrow and every day until I speak to one of them. So please don't go assuming that something is amiss. When I talk to one of them I will pass along what I have learned. I am starting to wonder if you are a usfws agent posing as a taxidermist...if you are, please PM me and help me get in contact with the ones I am trying to contact. I have talked to the state law enforcement officer multiple times but until I speak with the federal agent I am not speaking about it. I WILL share what happens because you are right, others need to learn from what I did. But be patient...maybe they are on covid 19 stay at home and forgot their cell phones in the office. I also get the distinct feeling that you are hoping that I get busted...at least that is the way it feels to me. I really hope that isn't the case because as vulpes said above, I was acting in good faith based on the info I received from the state officer. I do have thick skin but I have also been having nightmares about owl talons grabbing the back of my neck (or other nether regions) and not letting go - those sucker's are sharp. And once again, if you are law enforcement, please reach out to me and help me contact those special agents. I want to bring this to a conclusion as much as you seem to want to.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
  13. Bruce M

    Bruce M Member

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    As much as I feel foolish about what I did in not looking fully into the owl work before I started (despite the fact of the state contact and permit) I must say that I have learned a ton from all of you and the back and forth about the fine points of the federal permit system and interpretations there of - thank you. And from what I have read here I can see that, as a taxidermist, you REALLY have to read and ask a lot of questions and know the exact route of the straight and narrow path lest you fall into the quick sand on either side. As I said a lot earlier, this has been a lesson well learned by me. And when I talk to one of those agents I will relay the conclusion.

    On another note of learning, have any of you read the 7 page thread started by Trophy about a 2 1/2 hour inspection he had...this thread was started many years ago but just had some 2019 posts...by Tanglewood I think...so it shows up in the new posts 2 or 3 pages in...read it and think about the "correct way" to treat an inspecting officer. I was up late last night reading that - very interesting and spirited and a good reason to have a good record keeping system when I finally start doing work for customers....if I don't get busted.
     
  14. Tanglewood Taxidermy

    Tanglewood Taxidermy Well-Known Member

    Bruce, I feel bad that your situation has been made an example of me and others. Please know know that in my case, it was done in the interest of education only. I have passed no judgement on you for this. Mistakes are made everyday by people with good intentions.
     
    Bruce M and Wildthings like this.
  15. Tanglewood Taxidermy

    Tanglewood Taxidermy Well-Known Member

    Before I started my business, I did some work for some of my hunting buddies. They bought the materials from a supply company, gave them to me and I did the mount. I accepted no money for my services, so I did it without a license. A game warden was talking to one of them and he said I did a great mount for him. Game warden stops by and says he's there for an inspection of my books. When I said I didn't have any, as I'm not doing taxidermy for the public and he said "not from what I heard". I explained the situation and that he had no legal right to inspect me as the regs said, at the time, he was allowed to inspect the books of the license holder and that I didn't have a license and didn't need one. He said that that was true and he would inspect my freezers and be on his way. I said that I was late for an appointment and that I would be leaving now. He never came back. I have had pleasant interactions with most of them. A couple of them seemed to be looking for trouble, of which they found none, however, they left a bad taste in my mouth.
     
    Bruce M likes this.
  16. 3bears

    3bears Well-Known Member

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    I wish you well Bruce. The fact that we as citizens have to deal with such antiquated laws tends to irritate me but the fact remains that it would take too many resources and too much time to even attempt to change them, I doubt they will in our lifetime.
     
    Bruce M and Wildthings like this.
  17. Wildthings

    Wildthings Well-Known Member

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    EXACTLY!!
     
    Bruce M likes this.
  18. Wildthings

    Wildthings Well-Known Member

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    Bruce thank you for taking the brunt of these back and forth conversations. They have been very educational
     
    Bruce M likes this.
  19. Bruce M

    Bruce M Member

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    I know and I take no offense...really, I take no offense from any of this conversation. Like I said, I am grateful for all of the insights I have gained as a result of the back and forth. The pressure from crablover has been uncomfortable at times, but I guess I had that coming based on my mistake. And I realize that crablover is probably riding me in an effort to reverse the optic that taxidermists (if I can even refer to myself as that yet) don't know the laws and are generally ignorant.
     
    Wildthings likes this.
  20. crablover

    crablover Well-Known Member

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    Bruce, with all do respect, you started this thread with questions and a picture of a protected species and I was not the first person to bring up the legality issue. I stepped in the thread when you were given wrong information. I posted only to clarify what the laws clearly spell out, and offered you the proper steps to take to resolve the issue. You must have known your holding the Owl might cause peoblems or you would never had gone to the DNR. It was hard to believe that as you stated a DNR supervisor would issue you a permit for federaly protected species. You then stated you had re contacted the DNR and then made contact with the USF&W while you still had the Owl. Now you state they did not answer the phone. USF&W would have taken the Owl from you as should the DNR. Knowing the law does not make me a USF&W or DNR officer, but I do know this site is monitored and is a gold mine for those government agencies. I am sorry for your nightmares, however if you took the proper step, turning the bird over then you would have a good nights sleep. You will never get a permit after the fact, and if you had done everything perfectly you still would never obtain a permit. I am sorry you think what you do about my posts, but they are accurate and were made to point you in the right direction, save you grief and not end up in federal court It is obvious by other posts that some do not now the laws as well and this whole thread should be a learning experience for all taxidermist