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Neutralizing Tell Me Why

Discussion in 'The Taxidermy Industry' started by 13 point, Aug 1, 2020.

  1. 13 point

    13 point Well-Known Member

    Big talk on the tanning stuff someone please tell me what’s going to happen if I don’t , no disrespect but I don’t want to hear from people who have no background and do it because they were told XYZ . Let’s hear it from the experts , WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO MY MOUNTS IF I DONT NEUTRALIZE . Thanks
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
  2. 13 point

    13 point Well-Known Member

    No one has an answer for me
     
    Monte likes this.

  3. 15pt

    15pt Active Member

    174
    179
    Alabama
    I didn't on one 3 yrs ago for my own use and it's done fine. It was strictly a fact finding deal for me also.
     
  4. rogerswildlife

    rogerswildlife Rogers Wildlife Taxidermy Tommy Rogers

    If you are acid pickling at 1.5 ph and do not neutralize I dont see how you will ever get the stretch back even if its shaved. Plus you risk acid rot that will eat the hide up over time. Post this in the tanning section and maybe some more will chime in. Me personally I wouldn't risk not neutralizing.
    Tommy
     
  5. 13 point

    13 point Well-Known Member

    This is why I’m asking , I have competition and clients mounts that are 20 years old , a lot done with Formic acid even and no issues, I’ve soaked them down and remounted some with no issues. No cracking, very plyable. I haven’t neutralized a cape in 20 plus years that’s hundreds of capes and no issues. I flesh , pickle , flesh on machine back in pickle for a day or two and pickle is 1.5 up to 2 then I hang it to drain or drip dry for hour or so then paint tanning cream on and let sit out for 6 hrs , at that time I freeze it or wash it in tide laundry detergent with a squirt of dawn . Then I wrap in towel to dry out then mount . In twenty plus years I’ve never had an issue and I can show you all my comp and show room mounts and not one has an issue, so please someone tell me why I must Neutralize and why or what’s going to happen.
     
  6. joeym

    joeym Jeannette & Joey @ Dunn's Falls

    The Tide and Dawn may be neutralizing your skins.
     
    Keith and Keith Daniels like this.
  7. Joeym just answered the bulk of your question.

    The acid left in the skin will degrade the fibers over time, but, if the finished mount is kept in a dry/climate controlled environment the affect will be minimal, it takes moisture to "re-activate" the acid left in the skin.

    Also, the tans used for taxidermy, even the paint on tans, need the skin to be in a certain pH range for the attraction and bonding to the fibers to take place. In the case of an immersion tan there is typically a lower pH range where the attraction takes place, then a higher range where the tan bonds.

    Even when done properly there will be some residual acids left in the fibers.

    Last, there is a difference between a "tan" and a preservative. A skin that has been pickled and oiled, i.e. any of the dump this stuff in, one step processes, is preserved and will likely last long time once mounted when properly stored.
     
  8. 13 point

    13 point Well-Known Member

    And is what I thought thanks
     
  9. 13 point

    13 point Well-Known Member

    Thank you and I agree with most said here but am confused one the preserved and tan part , why do you say there not tanned , I have and sell what I call a shop tanned hide , meaning if a client wants a wall hanger , let’s say a fox or otter , i explain if you just want it to hang I can do it cheaper here at the shop it will just not be soft as I won’t break it . I will run it thru the same process then blow the hair out and hang to dry , it’s cheaper then me sending it out .if you take one of these hides and pull on it after it’s dry you can see the whiteness and feel the stretch in it months later. I have taken same said hide a year later and soaked them down and mounted, with no issues and plenty of stretch and no slipping . I have seen No Ill effects from not running it thru a neutralizing bath and is what I’m trying to figure out . Please keep the input coming. I’m not trying to argue this point , but if I have a counter point that proves your theory different I will state it . As Joe said , is the washing I do actually also neutralizing it , as is what I’ve always thought. Thanks all
     
  10. Keith

    Keith Well-Known Member

    Laundry detergents contain Sodium Carbonate, which is neutralizing your skins. But you are not getting the full effect of your tanning oils because your skins are not at the proper pH for the oils to bond with the skin on a molecular level.
     
  11. 15pt

    15pt Active Member

    174
    179
    Alabama
    That's probably what happened with the one
    I was speaking of.
     
  12. 13 point

    13 point Well-Known Member

    H
    How can I see of find out the amount of tanning cream effect I am getting from one of these capes and or hides . What will the difference be . As stated I get full stretch and ply ability with no cracking around eyes and such after years . Again I’m just trying to understand and figure this out . Thanks again
     
  13. Tanglewood Taxidermy

    Tanglewood Taxidermy Well-Known Member

    A preserved hide is a hide that is in stable condition as to not allow it to rot. A tanned hide is a hide that has chemically been changed into leather. I used Liqua-tan for most of my career and the instructions say that it will tan between 3.5 and 5 pH if I remember correctly, with 4 being optimal. So, if I went to put the Liqua-tan on and the skin was at a pH of 2.5, the tan wouldn't take. It seemed that the Liqua-tan actually tanned it into leather, but, I can't be certain that it did. The company that sells it says that it does.
     
  14. Tanglewood Taxidermy

    Tanglewood Taxidermy Well-Known Member

    I did 3 deer mounts. 1 with DP, one pickled and oiled and one just fleshed shaved. They all fair about the same which is, they held up pretty good.

    If I'm going to spend money on a tanning agent, I want to do all that is required by the product manufacturer. If I didn't , then there is a chance the product is not doing it's full capacity, then I would in essence, be wasting money on the product and wasting time in the shop.
     
  15. Keith

    Keith Well-Known Member

    I'm guessing the full stretch you're getting is after the "neutralizing" detergent wash.

    The lack of cracking is the quality of hide paste/ and clay. This also explains why some have good luck with dp.... good clay and glue.
     
    Frank E. Kotula likes this.
  16. 13 point

    13 point Well-Known Member

    Well as much as I appreciate your info , I’m not buying it , just because you say it doesn’t mean it is or isn’t , there has to be a way to show me . You said if there was moisture reintroduced and there has been, many of times no issues. You are still saying there not tanned and yet they stretch after dried , are not rock hard and when bent they do break even after bending back and forth like a pcs of plastic or metal wood . I’ve had capes come from tannery and to me there is no difference, so what’s makes there’s tanned and mine preserved. I’ve been do this for 35 years so I’ve seen and know a lot I know what preserved means . The structure of hide as been changed and if and when I rehydrate a cape if not tanned it would either 1 not stretch or 2 swell and fall apart , this doesn’t happen. Thanks again but to me my question still hasn’t been answered.
     
  17. Tanglewood Taxidermy

    Tanglewood Taxidermy Well-Known Member

    You just answered your own question.

    You reject what the some have told. Kieth Danials is an expert and said probably nothing bad will happen to them wether they are just pickled, just preserved or tanned. Based on your experience, your experience has shown you that nothing bad happens if YOU don't neutralize. So, why ask the question again?
     
    rogerswildlife likes this.
  18. 13 point

    13 point Well-Known Member

    I’m not questioning his answers as I appreciate them , I’m asking how can I tell and what is the difference, and if you read what I’ve posted I am going to counter . What is a tanned hide ? And how can you tell . From what I know and have seen my capes match all the criteria of a tanned cape . Thanks
     
  19. 13 point

    13 point Well-Known Member

    E106771C-6117-457D-BFBB-1B7C34294CA5.jpeg 9C6D3994-DD28-4EEF-9374-7C6BDD58168C.jpeg Here is a couple pics of the back part of a cape stapled from a shoulder mount , I bent it down to show color and pliability , can we tell by this ?
     
  20. Keith

    Keith Well-Known Member

    A tanned skin is chemically changed. I can make a well prepared deer rawhide perform similar to a tanned skin. That still doesn't make it a tanned skin.