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Don’t Be Too Rough On Me Guys...

Discussion in 'Fish Taxidermy' started by Clovis Point, Jul 4, 2021.

  1. Clovis Point

    Clovis Point Active Member

    462ABB09-DEF4-4809-A04D-FF7DEEA163D0.jpeg FC83AE60-E482-4485-8151-E9D33190726C.jpeg 60C7F708-087E-4892-9615-2D6019D9E29B.jpeg 1211734D-8C1B-4A9D-AE1C-4406E3ED5CEA.jpeg 22385CCA-4CE8-457D-80B6-24D72067A946.jpeg 75EE0383-2A97-4AA8-9124-283AF81FF3E2.jpeg image.jpg It’s only my second fish, first repro, first musky. At the point I took these pics it hadn’t been sealed yet (using Gary Bowen’s super fish gloss) and I need to clean up the eyes. Also adding a gravel bar down at the bottom with some homemade foam rocks and natural river pebbles. The last pic is the primary one I used as reference. It’s a fish that was taken in local waters ... seems our Musky are somewhat lighter and less marked up than many more northern fish I used the Rhinehardt schedule from the book he sells, all air spray I used a mix of water based mostly createx illustrator and wicked because lifetone hydromist is garbage
  2. Frank E. Kotula

    Frank E. Kotula master, judge, instructor

    What hurts the most is the gush is turned in the sun and you get a poor pic of its colors and markings.
    I would get better references of the fish in your area. Then post them here so we can look and give you a better idea .
    Personally I can see a lot of light markings in the fish but I would like a lot more references before doing that that fish.

  3. Clovis Point

    Clovis Point Active Member

    here are some better quality reference photos from (the bottom 2 are Green river , top is green river lake) its still on my stand so ill take some more pics

    23-muskie_bob_palmer.jpg musk3.jpg musk2.png
    drob likes this.
  4. Clovis Point

    Clovis Point Active Member

    image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg There’s with the doors down. I have added sealer now so the sheen is more real and not so much the glare
  5. Frank E. Kotula

    Frank E. Kotula master, judge, instructor

    Ok if you look more at the references you’ll see that your colors are a bit off.
    It’s more pronounced silver with very light markings , gold tipping on top 1/3 with more light musky green on top.
    Your fish has more yellows that isn’t shown in your references so I would work on more of a brighter side profile than the yellow.
    I would hand paint the scales on the bottom 2/3 of the fish to a more silver color and use a variety of different mediums to get it there.
    You have a decent fish here but different from your references. JMO
    Crousebow and George like this.
  6. Clovis Point

    Clovis Point Active Member

    frank, I value your opinion and honestly my eye came to the same conclusion as yours. Honestly, dont take it the wrong way, but I am pleasantly surprised you didnt have anything more critical to say... I think the reason I ended up where I did is because there is an obvious discrepancy between Green River KY (and Green River Lake) muskys and the "national norm" northern/great lakes that Dan Rhinhardt based his schedule on, and I didnt have the experience/knowledge/cajones to deviate from the schedule which has served as much my guide in my fish journey thus far as my reference.

    To be honest I painted this fish once already and leaned more on the schedule than reference and was displeased with the end result and wiped it down. But i needed the rhinehardt schedule to see first hand how the colors layered upon each other to get to the end result I came to.

    Another big reason the fish didnt end up more silver/white is an issue I elluded to in my original post... The absolute shitting of the bed i experienced with Lifetone water based white pearl and silver pearl.... ya see, I got pulled over to the dark side of water>lacquer by following the preaching of Tom Matuska and his affinity for createx illustration paints... I had excellent results with all the illustration stuff I tried on my deer and mammals as well as the only other fish i have done (purchased the illustration basic fish set from matuska) as well as the polytranspar waterbased yox nose pad grey on deer, and it was while still riding this high that I decided to throw an 8oz white pearl and 8oz silver pearl on the back of a substantial form order I was placing with James Supply.

    I have since learned that Createx Illustration ≠ any old waterbased airspray ammo

    I dont know if its Lifetones shortcomings or if its because James Supply doesnt turn over the volume other suppliers do causing the product to sit on the shelf too long and going bad(an issue I have had before when ordering general supplies from James Supply) but when I went to start in on this fish i had intentions of using both the white pearl and silver pearl and despite shaking the ever living shit out of these paints (including taping the bottle to a sawzall blade and sticking a milk frother in it) I absolutely could not get it to mix up into a useable condition. It just stayed runny/clumpy in both my badger renegade velocity ultra fine as well as rage fine and wouldnt even atomize in my paasche H with a 3 bar tip. So I kind of had to scramble, drop back and punt, and rely on the illustrator opaque white I had on hand + the wicked pearl white which was all i was able to source locally at HobbyLobby because scheduling didnt really allow for me to wait on a mck order. So any advice on unstratifying/unpolarizing the 16oz of lifetone garbage clog sauce I have on had would be greatly appreciated.

    Also if you would elaborate or point me towards resources in regards to the "hand painting the bottom 2/3s" I would be very grateful.

    Last edited: Jul 6, 2021
  7. Clovis Point

    Clovis Point Active Member

    Frank. Here’s the aforementioned rhinedhardt schedule source

    Attached Files:

  8. 1fish2fish

    1fish2fish Well-Known Member

    These references aren't discrepant to Great Lakes/Northern Muskies.

    Your paint schedule is intended for a skin mount fish.

    I see the back color as brown, I wouldn't overspray with green as Frank suggests.

    Don't spray pearl through fine or ultra fine airbrush needles/tips.

    Learn not to rely on Taxidermy suppliers for supplies.

    Blue + Yellow = Green. Think on it.
  9. Frank E. Kotula

    Frank E. Kotula master, judge, instructor

    Ok first thing you need to learn is throw those paint schedules away. There fine if your looking for colors only that’s it!!
    We -I won’t follow them cause you’ll learn this” I can paint any color I want when I want “ All we do when we paint fish bud to get our base the foundation from there you just build by looking at references flow paint where I need it and keep going.
    Now look at your references close ( enlarge them) and you’ll see how the scales are shaped to where you’ll see a golden or a silverish color. I’ll hand paint them then followed by tipping as you look at the edges and they’ll have a V shape bright gold in most areas and they get hand painted. Yes it’s anal but it’ll get you fish a better lifelike look to it and it’ll change the colors of your paint job.
    They can be applied by either wet or dry.
    Roflmao can I be critical YOU BET but it goes on what’s being said in words and what’s asked. I’m honest but yes can be brutal but it’s always done hopefully but not taken in a manner to help or explain what’s wrong with a fish.
    We all know I’m anal on what I do as I’m always trying to better myself abd want others to achieve high quality work it’s how a person wants to take the advice. We forget it’s words that are written and can be very easily read wrong as I know why back in the day and learned that valuable lesson.
    George and socalmountainman like this.
  10. Clovis Point

    Clovis Point Active Member

    Yeah being totally green I kinda just liked having the schedule to know what colors to buy and kind of give me a rough generalized idea of where/how to start. Like I said this paint job was the second, after I wiped the first one down completely. I myself observed that when I emphasized reference more and schedule less I liked the outcome better. But I needed to see the way some colors layed over the top of others. For example, the way that putting a very light gold sparkle mist on nearly everything at the end gave me the tone I wanted but it didnt really look right until I did.... so it was hard moving from green to the darker colors knowing I didnt like the green the way it was.... but i figured out what I didnt see until the end of my 1st attempt which was that adding that very light gold sparkle shifted the tone just so, and trusting that observation and implementing it paid off, because it looked more right at the end the second time.

    I also thinned everything but white more the second go around and was happier with that outcome than the first go round.

    Do you guys normally work from light tones to dark, and then hit your sparkles/pearls at the end?
  11. 1fish2fish

    1fish2fish Well-Known Member

    Frank offers a ton of good advice, but...

    Don’t listen to him and throw out your paint schedules. Study them, analyze what’s happening and try to understand why a schedule produces what it does. Think, what doesn’t exactly work and what might have been more effective.

    Attached is a nicer version of your musky paint schedule. Look at Dan’s fish vs the reference. Consider what doesn’t quite match his reference. Also, consider how his approach leads to the final result.

    Research color theory. Know the difference between transparent, translucent, opaque. It will start to make a lot of sense.

  12. Clovis Point

    Clovis Point Active Member

    thanks for that input 1f2f
    1fish2fish likes this.
  13. Frank E. Kotula

    Frank E. Kotula master, judge, instructor

    You made my point of throwing away a paint schedule as look at it and see what works and doesn’t! That’s why I don’t and say throw them away.
    A reference pic tells you way more as if your changing a paint schedule then what did that schedule actually do? Nada in my opinion. Learning colors through a color wheel will give you more opportunity to get or paint a fish more correctly .
    Fish painting is fun by not following them as you can do whatever you want when you want and learn different ways of achieving great looking fish. Schedules are more paint by numbers but don’t like that number put a different one in so that throws it out the door. If a person can’t see color it will be very hard to paint a fish . I got where I’m at by breaking away from those paint by numbers and understanding colors and what makes colors and not buying colors cause I don’t have the knowledge to make them. With today’s internet you can find out how and what colors make colors of fish that you just can’t buy!
    All is fine that we agree to disagree but fish taxidermists will get nowhere without experiencing different thoughts and techniques than following someone’s thoughts on how they paint. JMO
    rogerswildlife likes this.
  14. 1fish2fish

    1fish2fish Well-Known Member

    A reference photo gives no clues other than the end result that none of us accomplish. It's the finish, not the race.

    Paint schedules, they're a start. Sounds like YOU started there too, and "broke away." I bet you learned something having gone through that. I didn't say follow them, unnecessarily.

    Studying technique is just as helpful as studying object. A paint schedule demonstrates the principals of color in action. Analyzing where one succeeds and fails is educational. Using paint schedules as a study aid isn't folly.

    I'm glad you aren't holding anyone back here by just plopping down the old, follow reference. I'm sure the OP appreciates your thoughts on HOW YOU PAINT. I don't mind them either. In this case, however, maybe don't recommend overpainting the back green.
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2021
  15. Clew

    Clew Help a child, Build our future

    York, SC
    I used paint schedules In late 70s
    From Archie to poly
    But realized my best work came from learning colors
    Interpreting colors on fish
    And apply as i see building up from body to finish
    Study reference
  16. crablover

    crablover Well-Known Member

    Frank, your long post sure makes for hard reading. It sure takes some thought to decipher what you are saying
    George and Frank E. Kotula like this.
  17. Frank E. Kotula

    Frank E. Kotula master, judge, instructor

    Ya I get long winded lol
  18. Frank E. Kotula

    Frank E. Kotula master, judge, instructor

    Yes what I learned was I was painting any fish wrong. That’s the best lesson I learned from them.
    your correct that we’re looking at the end result with a reference pic but how do you think someone made a paint schedule? By looking at the end result and tried to paint it. You get everything from a reference pic, colors on a fish and if you can’t see the the colors from your references then it might not be a good idea on being a fish artist cause your no thinking on your own but all your doing is letting someone else tell you what they think. Same goes for deer etc sculptors as it’s their interpretation but they study live and dead references and go from there to many fish guys want it paint by numbers so everything looks the same. You’ve achieved nothing in fish taxidermy. Your probably better off sub your out . Lol yep I’m getting long winded but in the end throw them away unless you want to be a follower instead of leading.
  19. 1fish2fish

    1fish2fish Well-Known Member

    You're right Frank, Paint Schedules are just the dumb musings of random nobodys.;)

    Frank E. Kotula likes this.
  20. Frank E. Kotula

    Frank E. Kotula master, judge, instructor

    Hey when you get asked you offer it up and it’s explained in the video how you vary colors to get different colors
    It’s a very informative dvd and thanks for advertising it.
    Plus it gives you my email and phone to call with any questions so that I could help out those learning this art. hmm and what have you offered up to aid in the industry?