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Discussion in 'Tanning' started by Hudson, Sep 17, 2007.

  1. Hudson

    Hudson Guest

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  2. Frank E. Kotula

    Frank E. Kotula master, judge, instructor

    Re: Most important key in neuatralizing

    That would be hard to say for I rather follow what's right and not mess with it. I would suggest you ask Mark at Knobloch's or Bruce Rittel for the answer to that one.
     

  3. bill@hogheaven

    [email protected] New Member

    8,017
    3
    Re: Most important key in neuatralizing

    I would suggest also that you drain the hide well before the nuetralizing bath. I would not ( I do not) change anything from the standard formula regarding amounts used or time in the bath.
     
  4. cyclone

    cyclone Posts: 400001

    Re: Most important key in neuatralizing

    1 equivalent of a base will neutralize 1 equivalent of an acid.

    If one has let's say 10 H+ ions (acid) floating around in solution, it would take 10 OH- ions (base) to neutralize ideally.

    Now, in reality, since we don't know how many H+ ions are in the hide, we add an excess of base and monitor the pH of the hide itself. ;)
     
  5. Re: Most important key in neuatralizing

    In theory...yes, but as you progress with tanning processes, the average tanner will test the solution and go with that unless a real problem pops up. In reality, when the tan goes over 4.8-5.2 you are getting into over neutralization territory. Once you pass the 5.5 mark, alum will precipitate. At 6.0, a pink color will be readily visible in the leather and reversal of preservation begins.
     
  6. paul e

    paul e New Member

    1,372
    0
    Re: Most important key in neuatralizing

    WHAT ABOUT THE WATER HARDNESS
    ?
    how do you guys factor the end result as far as amount of bs(thats baking soda)
    although regular bs can go a long ways these days
     
  7. cyclone

    cyclone Posts: 400001

    Re: Most important key in neuatralizing

    In theory, yes and in practical applications, yes...1 mole acid is neutralized by 1 mole base. What if alum is not used?
     
  8. Re: Most important key in neuatralizing

    Good point cyclone. I also use gluteraldehyde. The step in between the pickle and the tan is a degrease step that works in place of the neutralizing step. What I am getting at is the processes are made into formulas of measurements that eliminate having to test an individual hide for its pH. In Hudson's case with just one hide, it would help to continue testing the pH of the solution.
     
  9. cyclone

    cyclone Posts: 400001

    Re: Most important key in neuatralizing

    Agreed. I guess looking from two different points of view we get two answers. You being the tanner and running batches, you cannot afford the time, labor, and trouble of pH testing every hide. I'm looking from the home tanners perspective of one hide at a time. You have a formula that you follow and pretty much know the results. I add an excess of base and test the hide pH every 10 minutes...
     
  10. paul e

    paul e New Member

    1,372
    0
    Re: Most important key in neuatralizing

    cyclone thats were i got to the place i needed to be with the results i wanted
    i also used a excess and fined tuned from there
    my water is really hard so
    when,where and how much base can be different depending on a #
    of factors
    no cookie cut absolutes in the ratio imho and from my experience
     
  11. cyclone

    cyclone Posts: 400001

    Re: Most important key in neuatralizing

    How much base is dependant upon the amount of acid in your pickle and hide .... It is cut and dried and written in stone. 1 equivalent of base will react with 1 equivalent of acid. Scientific Law of Conservation of Mass There is no magic here.


    I add an excess of base (bircarbonate-aka baking soda) to a five gallon bucket of clean water(well water BTW) which includes my cape. I stir well and test the pH of the solution to ensure that it is high (usually pH's at 9) I then work the cape stirring often to ensure that the solution reaches all parts evenly. Every 10 min. I pull a thick section of the cape from the bath, rinse it well, pat dry and squeeze some solution from the hide. Touching a pH strip to this will give the pH within the hide itself. It usually takes about 30 min. with stirring and working the cape to get the desired pH within the hide. When the cape reaches the desired pH, I remove it and rinse with a mild vinegar solution. This neutralizes the excess bicarb in the hair and on the hide surface.

    I would make an educated guess that tanneries use a formula based upon the dry weight of hides that go into the pickle vat and perhaps the pH of the pickle solution once the hides have been processed.


    If you have a method that works, stick with it...
     
  12. paul e

    paul e New Member

    1,372
    0
    Re: Most important key in neuatralizing

    good info cyclone
    makes sense
    my point though was that its not cookie cut from one water source to the next being both the same
    but i understand the ratio and all dat
    weve had some weird stuff going on with our water sense Katrina
    im seeing stuff all over the map
    so what i had last month seams to be changing
    a lot going on hear with water treatment and all i guess
    taste,color,pH and smell
    were the bottom of the sink down hear at close to the mouth of the mississippi
    everybodies junk gets thrown in the river
    and ends up hear
    youll hear the water authorities tell how safe the water is
    but the average guy doesn't pay attention to the pH
    and other factors
    weve got i believe the highest cancer rate in the country
    go figure

    thanks again for the info im printing for reference and procedure
     
  13. cyclone

    cyclone Posts: 400001

    Re: Most important key in neuatralizing


    The changing water factors you mention have an effect on achieving the desired pH. Once that pH is reached your pH of 2 is exactly the same as my pH of 2....and the same as everyone elses pH of 2...

    as far as the cancer rates go:

    http://statecancerprofiles.cancer.gov/map/map.withimage.php?00&001&001&00&0&1&0&1&6&0#map
     
  14. paul e

    paul e New Member

    1,372
    0
    Re: Most important key in neuatralizing

    thanks for the cancer link site
    seams like every family i know around here is going through
    that challenge
     
  15. oldshaver

    oldshaver Guest

    Re: Most important key in neuatralizing

    The most important key to remember, to me, is, DONT TRUST PRE-SET FORUMLAS! When you least expect it, they will bite you in the ass! PH has a mind of its own. Stay on top of monitoring, and, take nothing for granted.
     
  16. Re: Most important key in neuatralizing

    Cyclone says pH is consistent, but water factors can change.

    Oldshaver thinks pH is a thinking entity and formulas can attack our posterior anatomy.

    I would just go with my original statement of test your water to avoid any pH issues.
     
  17. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

    2,518
    1
    Re: Most important key in neuatralizing

    Picture proof.
     
  18. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    Re: Most important key in neuatralizing

    Now thats a real pain in the ass right there...
     
  19. oldshaver

    oldshaver Guest

    Re: Most important key in neuatralizing

    Actually cyclone and I , gave some good advice.
     
  20. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    Re: Most important key in neuatralizing

    Yes, that was edited. Please take the hint...