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Yes, another stop rot question

Discussion in 'Tanning' started by Manderscheidt, Sep 21, 2007.

  1. Becky P

    Becky P One must believe the glass is half full.

    Lisa, my horse is allergic to fly bites. We can only give him about three shots a year, vet won't let him have anymore than that because of the risk of becoming diabetic.
    A friend had a dog that had skin problems (wished Stop Rot would've been on the market then, it might've helped). Anyway, same thing with it, different vet, not too many shots or pills because of the risk.
     
  2. Lisa M

    Lisa M Swing like no one is watching...lol

    Little update on my brother-dog's leg. Due to some private family circumstances, I haven't been able to post pictures of Roger's leg until today. I hope you all understand. Dad says
    Lisa
    As you can see from the pictures the leg seems to be healing, he has quit licking it. I put a little of that stuff on it a couple of times a week. Seems to work. Hope things are going well.
    Love
    Dad
    And here are the pictures:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Glen, thank you for inventing this stuff. More than I can say...thank you.
     

  3. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    Lisa
    "He had the sores when we first met him, but they were much much worse. They were as big as a dollar bill folded in half lengthwise...and all of it was weeping back then.
    The current sore is about as big as a fifty cent piece. Only 1/5 of that was openly weeping yesterday. "


    Let's see, a dollar bill folded in half would represent about fifty cents worth of surface area, a fifty cent piece would then be the equivalent to half a dollar's worth of surface area............

    I'm just giving you a hard time. By your description, the actual length has diminished by well over half?

    Was the hair missing on the surface area originally like what shows in your photos? If so, apparently hair grew back in the affected area?

    Is there any hair stubble on the current sore?

    What has been his reaction when a person touches the affected area?

    What's his current status?
     
  4. TRAPPERGIRL

    TRAPPERGIRL Proud Member-Taxidermy M.A.F.I.A. & Taxinet Clique

    hey i've been reading this and am gonna try it on my springer Rusty --- he licks the pads of his front feet so bad he gets sores on them - gets them raw -- so i'm gonna try spot rot on them
     
  5. Lisa M

    Lisa M Swing like no one is watching...lol

    Yes...the spot is only about as big as a dime Dad says now. In the most recent picture, taken last week the sore was about as big as a nickle. The hair has regrown. Even before Stop-Rot, they'd heal up a little bit, hair over a little, but they usually always had an area that was weeping and both legs had problems. No matter what happened, the sores always came back. They'd never heal & stay healed. Dad says that Roger has quit licking them altogether. :) He's doing the SR twice a week. Just after I started posting on Roger & his leg, my grandmother had some serious medical problems. My Dad was super busy taking care of & worrying about her. He's been able to focus more on Roger the past 3 weeks. The picture of the sore he had in my post of December 25th, Dad said that while he was preoccupied with Gram, that sore got big again. And one started coming on his other paw. As soon as he saw that, Dad jumped on it with the SR. So the picture I put on the 20th of this month, is the same sore from the 25th of last month, but with 2 weeks (or so) of getting worse, and 2 weeks of SR treatment. I talked to Dad last night. He says Roger is literally "healing up & hairing" over. ;D I will continue to post pictures of the process. It is an irritation for me that we don't have any pictures of the sores when they were really really bad. :( Thank you Glen, for inventing this stuff. ;)
     
  6. boarhunter67

    boarhunter67 Well-Known Member

    It says on my bottle (or maybe I read it somewhere) to use it on fish to keep scales from falling out. Do you just paint it on the fish before skinning? It doesn't seem like it would penetrate. Maybe I'm mistaken...
     
  7. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    Lisa, I took your photos and reduced them for web transmission by a few hundred kb. I am also posting them here so they will be permanantly housed on taxidermy.net.
     
  8. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    Hang with us on this thread, Boarhunter. Maybe I can help your understanding.

    Color code:
    Lisa's original quotes

    My original quotes

    Plain ol' black, my additions.

    Thanks for the update, Lisa.

    From the data you had already presented, I had already figured that what you just described was what was going to take place. As you may have already figured, this is a "first" in the way of a case history of this particular nature. I see some pretty strong indicators here, and they help to support a personal theory.

    I know there are at least four practicing, or retired DVMs on this site, with at least one student, plus a retired professor with a specialty in bovine nutrition. These are all people who have walked the walk with their own minds and eyes, and they are more than welcome to correct me if they think I am in error. Catch is, they'll have to explain their answer. Inquiring minds want to know.

    Copy and pasters...see first word, "copy", like in copy someone else's work, sorry, we don't cotton to those types in these parts.

    Hi Glen, they leak a clear fluid about 1/3 of the time. Yes blood was sent out...no unusual results found.

    I see that as an indicator. Common logic would be that if it were a diet influenced problem, "something" measureable would show up in the blood tests. A GOOD blood clinician can do some truly amazing stuff, but they most generally have to run a good number of tests.

    Remember you said, "they leak a clear fluid".

    They are generally in the same spots, although they do migrate up or down, or over a few centimeters. They think he is allergic to grains. He takes Evo dog food...exclusively...unless he sneaks.

    My thinking is that the problem is diet related also, but not as an allergy.
     
  9. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    He takes Prednisone...and they still flare up badly from time to time, but they never really heal fully.

    Warning has been issued.

    He had the sores when we first met him, but they were much much worse. They were as big as a dollar bill folded in half lengthwise...and all of it was weeping back then. So he's better now, but they just won't go away. Until he was rescued he lived in a 5x5 pen outside with very little positive human interaction. When my husband took his hat off, the dog used to cower.

    I don't care if it is a dog or an African Violet, living things need a proper environment in order to thrive. With warm bloods we also have that thing called a brain to contend with, requirements for mental health of an animal may not be as great as they are for a human, but they are still there. Humans don't have an exclusive on producing digestive acids in excess due to stress. Nor do they have an exclusive on developing acidic systems as a result, that can lead to more physical stress, that rolls over into more mental stress creating an on going cycle.

    When my husband took his hat off, the dog used to cower.

    That would tell me that the dog had almost no human interaction in it's formative WEEKS as a pup. IF the dog displayed the same cowering behavior with other dogs, in all probability it didn't have dog (litter mate) interaction either. Those would be indicators that the pup was weaned and isolated too early in life. If the dog responds in a positive fashion to other dogs, that would indicate a later separation from litter mates, where at least it's mind was able to develope "as a dog". In the latter case, the "attending" human didn't invest much time or attention into the pups.

    The obvious here is that the dog would be stressed each time it observed a behavior that it did not know how to contend with.

    One of the things that will be heard commonly from many people is that "Someone used to beat him before we got him, he would cower all the time". Wrong answer in probably all cases.

    Socialization is something that can be overcame to some degree in the mature dog, but it does take more time and effort than most people are willing to invest of themselves.
     
  10. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    Have you seen this kind of thing before? Anyone?

    You had asked the question if anyone had ever seen this condition. Your description, and photo, exactly match a description that a late DVM friend of mine had gave me awhile back.
    The subject was brought up in discussion when we were talking about the clinical symptoms of the first fawn you see at this address:
    www.taxidermy.net/forum/index.php/topic,47292.15.html

    She had said at that time that the condition like you described (in canines) was the closest thing that she knew of that was similar to the fawn's condition. When I asked her what caused the condition in canines, she replied that it was associated with a mineral deficiency. When I asked her WHAT caused the mineral deficency, she just shrugged and said she didn't know. As far as frequency of seeing such cases, I had asked that, to which she simply replied "periodically". She had also described the blackening of the keratinized tissue as a result of the licking.


    We've now assembled a little in the way of clinical symptoms, and as a result can start making some correlations. This could be a Happy Day in our lives.
     
  11. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    Lisa, how about posting a couple more photos?

    One of a complete bowel movement. A little larger than your foreleg photo, and at least the same clarity.

    Two, if you can zoom in, or use a macro setting, an extreme close-up of the stool where it shows textures on the surface.


    I've always said that you can get a pretty good idea as to what is going on inside an animal by what is coming out the other end. In simplest terms, any animal keeper needs to know their schitt. A good turd, along with the absense of smelly farts, is the reward for a job well done.
     
  12. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    STOP-ROT was applied generously. A "drawing" effect was quite evident. It usually took about fifteen to twenty minutes to see a "pinking" of the skin from blood flow coming into the area. Like the dog's condition, this was an area of poor circulation in normal conditions, but with high flexion. Once the skin showed pink, it was then hosed off with COLD water. This would shrink the capillaries back down, pumping the affected area out so to speak. The mare wound up going sound, and in fact was being trail ridden shortly afterwards.

    The only common factors I see with the dog and mare are the production of keratinized tissue. This could also be thought of as an obvious indicator that circulation is impaired to this area. With impaired circulation, nutrient is shut off to outermost cells, causing the build up of layers of dead cells like you see in the photo after the mare's leg photos.


    Two way street. If nutrient can not be carried to the cell, waste material can not be carried away. Remember, you said they would weep.
     
  13. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    Was the hair missing on the surface area originally like what shows in your photos? If so, apparently hair grew back in the affected area?

    Yes...the spot is only about as big as a dime Dad says now. In the most recent picture, taken last week the sore was about as big as a nickle. The hair has regrown. Even before Stop-Rot, they'd heal up a little bit, hair over a little, but they usually always had an area that was weeping and both legs had problems. No matter what happened, the sores always came back. They'd never heal & stay healed.

    Is there any hair stubble on the current sore?

    What I was "fishing" for was to see if there was a hair stubble something like beard stubble that might possibly look like as if the hair had been broken, or burned off at skin level.

    What has been his reaction when a person touches the affected area?

    Hello! I didn't hear that answer. What did you say?
     
  14. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    What's his current status?

    Dad says that Roger has quit licking them altogether. He's doing the SR twice a week. I talked to Dad last night. He says Roger is literally "healing up & hairing" over. I will continue to post pictures of the process.

    It is an irritation for me that we don't have any pictures of the sores when they were really really bad.

    Don't feel alone. I've cussed myself more than once.
     
  15. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    From the standpoint of food "allergies", I can add to that also, using the fawns pictured as examples. To do that though, I am going to have to be awake enough to think and type at the same time.

    Here is my theory.

    The fawns and Roger have probably shared a common grain product in their diets. Herbivore and carnivore with a shared diet item. What is wrong with this picture!?!

    The common diet ingredient they would share would be soybean.

    That statement is in simplest terms, a whole host of variables would be involved just from processing as a food stuff alone. That in turn would create another whole host of variables with the way an animal's system would respond. And don't forget that responses to diet can vary drastically from animal to animal.

    Carotene, and carotene-like structures, are found in a good number of plants. It can be found in comparative abundance in soybean. Carotene can be sythesized in the liver to produce vitamin E. Next time you are in a vitamin section in a store check out the ingredients of vitamin E capsules. You in all probability find soybean oil listed as the ingredient. That's soybean oil like in the pure vegetable oil label you will find on the grocery store shelf. Read the ingredients, the one on the back in fine print. The "clear" vegetable oils, like Wesson, have been "bleached" to do away with the yellow look.

    I might also add that soya oil has also been a common ingredient for some oil base paints for a good number of years now. If you didn't already know, or haven't figured it out, soya is another name for soybean.

    The fawns and soy products, and Roger and soy products, are actually two different "chapters", so I'll try to keep this to what I think would pertain to Roger.

    Carotene is aborbed directly from the digestive system and into the bloodstream. The excess which isn't processed by the liver is stored in fat deposits until needed. When needed, it is carried back to the liver with a lipid (fat).

    Anyone on here should now be seeing the number of potential storage "reservoirs" in an animal skin.

    "When needed" is a pertinent phrase.

    Another thing many on here that are from the grain belt areas would be well aware of is the huge stores of yellow fat on whitetails, especially the does, during archery through gun seasons. That is a pretty good visual of carotene stores. The "When needed" phrase would well apply here as the grain belt areas go from the land of plenty before harvest, to the land of nothing after that for the next three or four months. Stores definitely get used up in that last time frame.

    The canine system has an ability to take in an abundance, then to fast if need be for a good period of time. Being the conscientous humans we are, we tend to never give our animals the chance to apply "When needed".

    I have to suspicion a build-up of carotene in the skin that is causing an in and out flow of nutrient and waste to the skin in the affected area.

    Let me point out that anti-inflammatories would be "helpless" in this situation. Another indicator in process of elimination.

    There is apparently enough in and out flow that there is still life in the cells, if not, the hair would not be able to grow back. Once those cells surrounding the follicle are dead/destroyed/eliminated, no more hair. That simple.
     
  16. Lisa M

    Lisa M Swing like no one is watching...lol

    Good Gravy boats Glen. I'm going to have to split screen this...one browser page to look at your questions, one to write answers. If I miss any of your questions, I am sorry, please forgive me.

    I will try to get Dad to take a picture of Roger's feces. I asked before, and life jumped up with other plans for Dad's time. Roger doesn't usually have gas, but there are times when he can clear the living room of every living soul...including himself. It doesn't bother me, but we've gone over that in the skunk thread...lol ;) Usually he only has gas when he's snuck something he shouldn't have. Dad put the trash can in the utility closet and so far, Roger hasn't figured out how to open it. If someone (like one of my children) is absent minded & doesn't close the door all the way, Roger will get in there & see if there are any tantilizing tidbits. Then the green cloud rolls out. He also ate a half box of Puffs Plus...the kind with lotion...one night. Only thing left was one corner of the box and some shredded bits of tissue. No adverse affects that we could see and Dad said things "came out alright" if you know what I mean.

    Yes, when the sores were their worst, there was no hair in the affected areas...the bald surface area was about as big as that lengthwise folded dollar bill. The hair grows back, bit by bit from the edges. When they were weeping, there was no hair, but once they started to heal, stubble would creep back into the area & rehair things. But, sooner rather than later, he would lick them again, and the sores would grow again. They never completely went away.

    He doesn't freak out when someone touches them...or at least he hasn't that I've ever seen. He's really a very gentle spirited dog. He isn't very smart, definitely the Jessica Simpson of goldens, but he's a good dog.

    I was there when Roger met my parent's older dog, Rowdy. They both definitely reacted like dogs. Rowdy shortly put Roger in his place because of the 2 of them, Rowdy was definitely the Alpha. Rowdy died in October if I am remembering correctly. Roger still isn't Alpha, my Dad is. Roger has really bloomed under my late Mothers, and now my Fathers care. He wouldn't bark before...wouldn't even growl. We never tried to take food away from him, but I did put one of his pills into his food bowl after he'd started eating, and there was no reaction. Until Rowdy passed away, Roger would wolf down food in seconds. Literally...it would take him 30 seconds to eat 1 1/2 cups of food. We had to feed them separately, out of different bowls of course, Rowdy first, while Roger was outside.

    I do not know everything that this sweet dog's history held for him. I just know what the rescue agency told us, and that he needed to be rescued in the first place, speaks volumes. He's put on a good 20-25 pounds since he came into our lives. He weighs 84 pounds, and now actually is a little heavy! He was up to almost 90, but he's slimming down, slowly. Chunky little Monkey. ;)

    Glen, I'll PM you my Dad's email address okay? You two would get along great. He's detail oriented too...but he's a hydroelectric engineer & wood worker. I believe the true results of the benefit for Roger with using Stop-Rot will be when the sores are healed...and then they stay healed. When you talk with my Dad, Glen, you can tell him about your soybean theory. It sounds solid to me.

    Thank you for taking so much time with thinking about Roger's problems Glen. :) :-* He really is a good boy.
     
  17. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    It's time for another dose of culture shock for some of you. Remember, the dermy part of the taxidermy word has something to do with skin..........

    Here's a copy of an e-mail sent to me by Dan Fiala. I edited the photos down to the most pertinent for illustration. The photos will be in two separate posts. Dan will fill you in on details.

    Glen, if you remember, I chatted with you about the use of stop rot on my black lab, on her elbow area. Following are pictures that show the results. It worked great, thank you and thank you to stop rot!!!!!

    The first picture is before I started to treat the opening. The next three are midway in the treatment, you can see what appears to be new growth around the opening. The last two show the area healed over.

    Thanks Glen!

    Dan
     
  18. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    .
     
  19. Lisa M

    Lisa M Swing like no one is watching...lol

    Dan, I bet that dog is sooooooooo much happier. Thank you so much for taking the time to take the pictures and share them with Glen. ;)

    Oh...for those who may be curious...Roger's legs are fine & dandy now. He doesn't lick them. They are finally healed. My Dad is grateful that Stop-Rot showed up in our lives when it did. ;)

    I'll get pictures the next time I go down for a visit. ;)
     
  20. Boone F

    Boone F New Member

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    Iowa
    When I called my vet about my lab's elbow, he said that type of opening, and he did have a name for it, is a nightmare for a vet, very hard to heal. Also, to compound the problem with healing it is that my lab is on medicine because she has cancer, and the meds make healing things like this even more difficult, not to mention she is 13 years old and healing even if she was healthy is slower then a young dog. So anyway, as you can seen I started to see results within just a few days. It truly was amazing. The process for me on this was I applied stop rot once a day for probably 4 days, until I started to see some results, then I went to once every other day until is was healed.

    Lisa, yes, she is much happier!

    Glen, thank you again for the help and for stop rot!

    Dan