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Discussion in 'Training' started by Alaska Mountin Man, Dec 11, 2007.
Glad to see you two in the 10%
I think the problem with this thread is some people are classing part time helpers as apprentices, here in the UK an apprentice is a full time learning position, with pay. The pay increases as you learn until hopefully there may be a full time job at the end of your time, 3-4 years for most jobs, or you move on, and another apprentice starts . ( I may be wrong but as an incentive to train apprentices I think company's employing apprentices may benefit in some way with government help. )
A part time helper who chooses to help to gain experience is a different matter.then I would say it is up to the two partys involved to come to their own arrangement, I for one would willingly help out for no pay, But if you have a full time apprentice, and don't pay , how do they survive ?
I am new to this and I would not expect to be paid. It is a skill that I want to learn and I would not be paid to attend school. I have a local taxi just down the road from me and he is willing to help me out. (really nice guy)I do not want his customers, I will get my own. If one of his comes to me I would have to turn them down. Best of luck to you, But don't expect to be paid until you no what you are doing. Then maybe bring it up.
Think of it like other skilled trades, plumber, electrician, builder, HVAC, etc. Would you go to "learn" from them for forty hours a week until you can do it on your own? This industry has so many that look at themselves as hoobyist instead of a true industry. How is it different from an electrian for instance? Both have to learn a skill then apply it. Both have to price out their work to make a profit. Both have to make their customers pleased with their work.
Did he make you sign a no compete paper, stating that you could not start a taxidermy business within 25 miles of him, for ten years? Then not pay you on top of that?
I guess if he was just training, and not makeing you work, that could be free, but watch out that he doesn't make you start doing his dirty grunt work.
Here's my two cents, if it's worth that. I wish I had the money and time to go to school. Problem is, I have a full time job, 2 active kids, a wife who works 60 hours +, and I am very active with Scouts. Now... what school is going to allow me to come in and learn for just a few hours, on my schedule when I choose? I'm willing to bet none, (these are the dates and times, take it or leave it), regardless of how much money I give them and to take time off of work to go to school is not only going to cost me tuition but lost sales so I'm paying a lot more than just tuition to go to school. And, who out there is willing to pay me to come and work in their shop on my schedule and not yours? I doubt anyone. Seems like, for me to "work like a slave" for no pay in exchange for a little knowledge would be a pretty fair trade. And what the hell is wrong with paying your dues anyway? Isn't this more a question of value? I'm willing to work my bum off for free in trade for some of your experience, seems like a fair trade to me if you'd agree to it. If you took me on, and felt you were providing me more than I was for you, I'd expect you to say something, ask me to work more or help pay for materials, and vica versa, if I was bustin my butt and didn't feel I was getting anything in return, I'd let you know. But if the value of what I'm learning from you matches the value of work your gettin from me, and it doesn't cost either of us, sounds like a pretty fair trade to me.
BTW...if any of you are in the Tampa area and need help around the shop for a few hours a week, feel free to PM me.
Fishnfule, that is my point, I would also help out for a couplee of hours for free, no problem. But would you do it for 40 hrs a week for free. My guess is no, because you have bills to pay and a family to feed.
Full time apprentices should be paid, or how would they survive ?
Yep, big difference between what some think of as an apprentice. How much can someone help you out an hour here and an hour there. You would end up getting nothing done yourself by the time you stop doing what your working on and help teach someone how to get started. It would be sorta like the same interuption when someone stops in your shop to check things out or just chat.
Believe me, if I felt he was a threat to taking business from me I would send him on his way. I am not threatened by the other ten guys up the road, why would I worry about a part time guy just learning the ropes. I would guess only 30-40% of my work is local (within 50 miles) anyway.The customer work he is taking in is the stuff I don't want anyway. Cheap, tight ass guys looking for a deal on mounts. I can also guarantee that in the amount of hours he has put in there is no possible way to be at all very good yet. That is what I mean by making beginners mistakes. Another is charging to little and working on poor specimens. I think it is great that I can help steer him from some of the same mistakes I made and LET him make the ones that I feel are a valuable learning experience for him. In a round about way I pay him by buying some of his supplies for his personal projects but the work he saves me is a pretty good trade. Some of the work he brings in goes in my freezedryer and he pays the same as any other wholesale customer would but gets the experience to go along with it. Now when he gets to point that he can go on his own great. I have another good friend in the industry and a wholesale client for freeze dry work. There is plenty of work out there to go around. To many guys in this business let their local area dictate the clients and prices they have. With the internet today the only limit you have is yourself.
your making a very valid point... im just part time . i have a regular work week .. the job i do ive had apprent. guys. they dont last long .. they all start the same way i can do this and in the end there only shotting them selves in the foot.. this craft takes time and there is so very much to learn its not even funnie. most that start i would geuss will never get past what they were tought any way . some however a few will go to the moon!!!!! its all about your talent level. and your desire to suseed. if you have all of that you might make it if not your done ... i charge as much or if not more in most cases as the taxi people around me .. im not going to work for free. i pay my doughter 30 % of the profit the shop make as she learns.. she works her arse off and she ,thank god has talent , good luck to all mark c