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Aren't most deer forms incorrect at the base of the skull???

Discussion in 'Deer and Gameheads' started by SCT, Jun 21, 2008.

  1. Shannon

    Shannon New Member

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    Right on Monte! So if we have so many variables in deer, I think we all agree on that, how can we expect to put every deer on a form, and never have to do any altering of the form, to make that individual deer look like when he was alive? I see no way to avoid form altering at some point to get all deer correct. There is just to big of differences between the individual deer. I really don't get off on making alterations on commercial work, as we all know time is money, but I feel I owe it to my clients to create a mount as accurate as it can be. If I gotta lengthen a head, I will. After all this reading, I'm gonna go through my personal tanned capes, find one of them "long necked devils" and I'm gonna lengthen the forms neck, and see how it mounts up. Hell , as long as I've been on here with this post, I could have altered the form, and mounted the deer. It would be drying right now as I type! :D
     
  2. Shannon

    Shannon New Member

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    On a different note, does anybody realize this post increased by 6 pages today? All this, and it's not in the current events catergory! That's alot of info. in one day, awesome!
     

  3. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    Welcome to the pilot airing of the Yox and Conley Show!

    Yox: Well, Conley, what's in store for our listeners tonight?

    Conley: Listeners? That's plural! Does that mean we have more than one!?!

    Yox: I can see right now it's going to be a long hour. WHAT are we going to talk about?

    Conley: With a growing interest in occiputs, and the vertical and horizontal ramus, I thought we should move forward and upward to the zygomatic bone.

    Yox: My, my, ain't that a big string of words for a hillbilly? And just WHY the zygomatic bone?

    Conley: Lack of public awarness as to how it affects cant and angle of the eye ball, not to mention the overall look of the head. I've prepared this picture to show our audience.

    Yox: You ijit! This is radio, our audience is the same as blind!

    Conley: Screw this gig then. I'm going to taxidermy.net where I can show my photos.
     
  4. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    I just ain't cut out for radio. Here's my picture. I took a photo of a deer that doesn't have much in the way of a zygomatic bone and photo chopped him one in. You can't see the bone though because it is under hair and skin, but you can see what a difference it makes in the look of the head. If you look at the area right under the pre-orbital gland, my lst thumb joint will sit right in there on top of that area. In the first photo, my thumb would slide right off of that area. THAT is what I was drawing attention to in the two similar deer heads, one being the live deer looking forward and up while his head was down, and the other being the dead head photo of Mr. Holmes Arkansas deer.
     
  5. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    A number of years ago I wrote just such an article on horse conformation and function for a breed newsletter. You must have missed it.

    Assuming the horse isn't too long in gaskin, the long neck with the ability for flexion at the poll would be the ride of choice, up or down.

    Going down, the horse can raise it's head, flexing at the poll, which shifts it center of gravity back towards the hindquarters. This puts the hindquarters underneath the horse (a lot like a sliding stop) which in turn frees up the forehand, making the horse less apt to stumble and lose balance. That would cause the horse to kick into a higher gear to try and avoid the fall. In the meantime, the rider would have a seat on a more horizontal plane.

    Going up, reverse. The head and neck go forward putting the weight on the forehand, allowing the horse to pull as opposed to push with the hindquarters. The short neck will keep the weight transfer back to the hindquarters, causing the horse to deliver an inch worm kind of ride.
     
  6. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    Im not positive thats a zygomatic bone. To me, the zygomatic arch is the bone behind the eye on ruminants. The bone under the eye is simply the orbital bone, like in humans.

    Also, Uncle Glen, I already do a radio show, ones enough for me!
     
  7. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    That must be why you didn't answer the question on page 11.

    In my big, thick book Dick shun airy fer Uppity Hillbillies, this is what it sez, yall listen up now, ya hear?

    zygomatic 1. of, or pertaining to, or situated near the zygoma 2. zygomatic bone (1700-10) Looks to me like you've had three hundred years to learn that.)

    zygomatic bone a bone on each side of the face below the eye, forming the prominence of the cheek; cheekbone.

    zygomatic arch the bony arch at the outer border of the eye socket, formed by the union of the cheekbone and the zygomatic process of the temporal bone.

    Deer Nephew Bill, I know, I just had to flush you out of cover. Is this one of those shows that can be listened to on computer at home or office?
     
  8. blackpup

    blackpup New Member

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    Shannon, I am afraid I alter many commercial mounts. For now it is just less frustrating. In the late 60's I had over 70 plaster whitetail molds. We always kept a finished hollow paper form in each one. we would get 2 or3 close ones, try the cape and mount it on the closest one.

    Sometime in the early 70's forms began to appear with wider shoulders, the claim being the the hunters wanted this look. I did not find this to be the case. Many times they have asked me to make the neck as large as possible, they have not once asked me to make the shoulders wider. My oppinion,this was a marketing gemmick.

    My guess is that most whitetail forms today are the product of comparing and re-moldeling existing forms and the errors are passed on.

    Today my approach is to look at the cape for measurments. I turn the cape wrong side out and measure on the tanned skin from the corner of one eye around the bottom to the corner of the other eye. Now measure the form same place. This gets rid of a lot of loose skin and gets back closer to the original nose to eye length. I alter the form to be a little smaller. Since this is usually the biggest change I correct this first. You got the idea, this is what we do. The cape you have is what you have to work with.

    Glen, Thanks for taking the time to make all these anotomical comparisons. Monte
     
  9. livbucks

    livbucks Well-Known Member

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    Possibly, if we break the name down to it's root, but one is surely just riding in on the coattails of the other. Maybe he can be a producer or something. Don't let him get in over his head. He surely is already!

    The horse thing: I would have bet that the short necked horse would be preferred for steep riding. I was WAY off, huh? I'm not much of a rider, but I know that steep climbs and descents scare the crap out of me. Going down is the worst. I just give'em the reigns and let 'em do what they will, and pray for the best. Sometimes I'm still on when it's over.

    Who here has a face for radio?? anybody?
    Thanks for the terminology lesson G.C. I can pay attention much better when I know what the words mean.
    I've learned so much, the membership fee here has finally paid off!
    I'm serious, no joke. I appreciate the lessons.
     
  10. SCT

    SCT New Member

    Blackpup, I agree with you 100%. I haven't been doing taxidermy very long so the first time I saw one of McKenzies mule deer forms I was concerned with how big (tall and wide) the shoulders were. I started measuring a few deer and wouldn't you know it, my eyes were seeing correctly. Interestingly, the skin still fits it. I've already discussed this with Glen so I understand why it fits the forms but I don't understand why they started sculpting them that big. Nevertheless, I've measured a good number of caracasses since then and found that rarely will you ever see a torso more than 18" tall, from brisket to top of shoulder, or 13" between shoulders or the backside of a form. I've seen plenty mature bucks with a 17" tall torso and I mean bucks with a 24" neck.

    I've also heard many times to make the neck as big as you can but never much about the shoulders. All we can do as sculptors is try to mimic nature as close as possible and keep it as average as possible. We've discussed plenty on how some deer have a bigger n-e for the neck size or whatever so there is a lot of work already laid out for the sculptor. I've always just figured the sculptors don't get paid enough to spend the time to research every aspect of the anatomy or they just fudge it not really knowing. If I didn't have good people to point things out here on this forum my new forms would not have the same quality. Or if I wasn't promted to get another carcass for the spine (and more great photos) I'd have missed more. Going through this process has been very educational and I really never expect to be reimbursed for my time on this form. But, I won't quit until my mounts are the way i want them. Anyway, thanks for all of your input everyone. This has been a very helpful and inspirational post. Let's keep it going!!!! Steve
     
  11. cht

    cht New Member

    OK what is on the class schedule for today. Would this be Sunday school for taxidermists ?
     
  12. SCT

    SCT New Member

    Oh, I don't know...I think a tutorial on skeleton articulation would be appropriate. Where's Teacher?????
     
  13. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    Some sumbeech has posted 27 photos at this address:
    Whitetail Deer Muscle Studies www.taxidermy.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.msg99441.html

    DISCLAIMER

    These photos are of a whitetail doe. They work for a buck also, point of origin and point of insertion is the same. Use your measurements logs and live photo reference to get size, shape, and flexion and relaxation of muscles.

    I've always looked at taxidermy as just another form of forensic art. And really, you don't even have to know the names of all this stuff, you only need to know what goes where.

    Let me tell you guys something to be watching for, A CLEAN WORKBENCH IS THE SIGN OF A SICK MIND!

    The set of shoulders you see on top of the workbench of the mentally healthy are what I use for my sculpting armature. I made a sculpture using bones and templates made from fresh dead deer (brisket specifically), then I whacked that into shoulders, neck and head, and made molds from each. I've done two different sizes at this point.

    I then tied a neck into the shoulders, which leaves a lot of void to fill as I made a taper coming off the shoulders to match up with smaller diameter necks, or be able to increase the size of the muscle mass over the smaller neck.
     
  14. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    I don't worry too much about cleaning the bone to white. Do that and you lose all the purdy colors. Here's a scapula that I use for my reference.

    Notice where I have an arrow pointing to on the whippy dip on the shoulder blade. Then you will see where I have an arrow pointing to the corresponding part on the carcass. Check out how the muscle runs off the shoulder blade and up the neck.
     
  15. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    When I tie a foam neck into my foam shoulders, I can guarantee you I'm going to lose my reference points, plus the front part of the scapula had been cut off the original to make my shoulder mold.

    I prefer hard mediums, in this case I am using body filler. I've lost my reference point for the shoulder blade shape. No big whoop, I use an upper arm bone (humerus) and the scapula to line things back up, then hold the scapula in place and mark off around it. I also mark off the whippy dip area.

    I then rough-in those muscle/scapula tie-ins, and I'm ready to move on to the next muscle group. I outlined the muscles with pencil to be sure you could see what I have done.

    Steve, I think this area is what Bill was driving at the other day when he was wanting to draw on your sculpture as this also sets the definition for the anterior trapezius. He'll be along shortly, and he's old enough to speak for himself.
     
  16. SCT

    SCT New Member

    This is juicy, keep it coming!!!!
     
  17. blackpup

    blackpup New Member

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    Glen, Are we assumming the back of the form is cut off even with the front of the front leg, or a little farther back ? I'am just getting my bearing . Monte
     
  18. livbucks

    livbucks Well-Known Member

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  19. blackpup

    blackpup New Member

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    Livbucks, Those donna pictures are great, Thanks for that reference. I look at pbase all the time and I missed those.

    Just draw an imaginary line where the back of the shoulder should be cut for a shoulder mount. I think it would be way different than any forms I have used lately.

    Now I wonder if we can find on a big rutting buck.

    Hell, I am still learning how to use computer. When I get better I will post pictures.
     
  20. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    And did you notice that knot on the back of the skull. Yep, a dark diamond directly behind the ear butts. AMAZIN ain't it? And I don't think his face could be any straighter with the neck than that one.