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Aren't most deer forms incorrect at the base of the skull???

Discussion in 'Deer and Gameheads' started by SCT, Jun 21, 2008.

  1. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

    I'm still werkin' on it...........we'll get this one stirred back up after a bit, and see if we can't get some more sightings.
  2. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

    Every so many decades there is a chosen one born onto our Mother the Earth. The chosen one dares to question the union of the head and neck, and the logic of traditional techniques.

    Trusting own eyes and mind, the chosen one steps forward, and in defiance of antiquated tradition and techniques, raises the mark.

    The Mule Deer Man Hath Cometh!

    Can I write an intro, or what?

    Here's the visual version of Steve's progress report, he can add all the gory details in text form. Saves wear and tear on my typing finger.

  3. Holy cow Glen!!!! You crack me up. That's quite an introduction to the new mule deer line. I sure hope I don't disappoint anyone. Guys, if it wasn't for Glen, this whole project may have been set aside on the shelf never to see the light. He IS the ANATOMY MAN!!!!

    It has been an arduous last two or three weeks. I now have a much better appreciation of the work that goes into sculpting forms. These photos represent what has come thus far. I suspect in another week or so I'll have a mold of this left turn for production. Maybe a couple of weeks after that I'll have a right turn of the same size and the process will continue until I have some 80-120 forms or until I die.

    When I first started this project I was thinking of only doing the heads, maybe in a change out form. 10 months later and I'm in deep.

    We took in our first velvet deer and elk of the season and I found myself running for the calipers along with a pen and paper to write down measurements. Now, if I had more time I'd attack elk and antelope forms also. After measuring the velvet mule deer, it was nice to see his head measurements were identical to my 7 1/2" n-e. Or should I say my forms head measurements matched the dead deers head???

    Anyway, thanks again goes to Glen Conley for his support with all my pesky questions and for posting photos for you all to critique. I'll get another photo or two when I get a fresh one out of the mold and then a photo of a mounted buck on the form. Cross your fingers and hope the skin fits right......
  4. nibjones

    nibjones Join your States Taxidermy Assoc.

    Good Luck! to you, Steve.
  5. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

    What you are going to be seeing in this next string of photos is a sculpture I did that is almost ready for sealing, and mold making.

    As far as size, it is a 7" nose to eye, and 18" behind the ears. It is basically a composite of three different Indiana yearling measurements. I'm talking 17-18 month old deer.

    The head and antlers you see in the first photos.....I used primarily the same head for the model that the antlers came off of. I just cross referenced with past notes on measurements. I did "mature" the face a little more so than what a yearling of that age would normally show.

    In the second photo, the antlers are from an Indiana 2 1/2 year old that had a ball park of a 7 1/2" nose to eye, but a slender head. Antler size does change the look of things.

    Again now, these are our "babies" (we always called 'em table bucks), BUT as many of you already know, this size could very well be an old mature buck in other parts of the country.
  6. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

    Most generally I have a hard time pulling off a good, clear photo of my sculptures, especially when I get that camo pattern thing going on when I'm mixing mediums. The next two photos give a better view of the head and neck union.
  7. cht

    cht New Member

    Very nice
  8. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

    The last two photos show a full profile, and an angled view. For you people that have an eye for proportions, how does the proportions of this sculpture compare to what you have been seeing in live (or dead) deer of this size?

    Talk to us Mr. Greg Waite!
  9. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    I feel that the neck is too long. Even if someone says its measured, etc, I would say that it was a very unusual subject used as a model.
  10. Monte

    Monte Missouri fur-Limited hair-tanning

    At this point I do not feel the neck is too long.
    What is the total length from the lower lip down the front to the wall?
    Bill, your observation of the neck being too long maybe more evidence of the difference in genetics and area.
  11. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

    Yer, Honor, allow me to present photographic evidence so that the accuser can try to argue the neck length off of these deer. If I remember correctly, the top buck was just past 3 1/2 when the photo was taken.

    The bottom buck, well what can I say, someone forgot to put a neck on him......

    I got most of the sculpture under primer. Shows up a "little" differently. I like the neck length.
  12. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

    By the way, I am also doing a line of the traditional STUBBY necks.
  13. I thought it looked like one of them long necked deer but if they are being harvested then why not have a form to chose that fits the bucks measurements. Looks good to me Glen.
  14. Monte

    Monte Missouri fur-Limited hair-tanning

    Glen, I only use that measurment for comparing forms and it is just a curious thing for me. When measuring a carcuss I break it down the same way you do.

    When fresh reference is available, you can bet I will have the rule and camara, and plaster ready.
    Maybe you will have larger deer forms in the near furture
  15. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    Sorry guys, Im just not agreeing. No hard feelings. Measure live deer, and dont measure an available deer and call that the type set. I can show you a two headed calf, but I sure as heck am not going to sculpt a second head on all of my models. Extreme analogy yes, but you get my drift. If Im sculpting a line of forms, I want the average of average. The first thing I noticed, and very obviously, was that the neck was longer then usual. To me, thats not what I wanna call average. Im just not ready to sucribe to regional differences being that specific either, with restocking, and all the variables. Thats just me though, the rest of you, please, do continue this discussion while I read on.
  16. livbucks

    livbucks Well-Known Member

    The lower one looks like an optical illusion, being the neck is bent away from the camera.
    He looks deformed going by that angle.
    Not saying he isn't short in the neck, but the camera makes it look more severe, I think.

    The top one simply looks like a freaking giraffe!!
  17. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

    Monte, here's the measurements. If you have something in the same size range that you have sculpted as an original, I wouldn't mind doing a comparison.

    7" nose to eye
    18" behind the ears
    20" 3 " down

    From the union of the upper and bottom lip to the wall, following ALL the contours, a total of 31 1/4".

    Stretched tape measure from bottom lip to wall, 29 1/2". Needless to say, that measurement can be changed with just the angle of the head in relationship to the ground.

    From the wall, to the point of the shoulder, 5 3/4". Point of the shoulder being the forward high point of the ball and socket joint of the upper arm and shoulder, or if the terms are preferred, humerus and scapula.

    The length of the upper arm next to the arm pit, from the wall to the point of the shoulder, 6".

    I have my first larger deer sculpt on the stand now, with the bulk of it being done. It is a 7 1/2" nose to eye, with an 18" neck in a straight semi-sneak pose. Once I have made a mold from it, and get it into foam, it will serve as my armature for size and pose variations.

    I'm sure you have already heard the old stockman's saying of, "Grow the frame first, then the body." Feral animals don't often listen to people, or at least pay attention to them, or read books on diet, and tend to be opportunistic feeders.

    As you probably already know, hoofed animals can and do frequently hit 80-90% of their frame size as short yearlings, with many genetic families that is pretty much where they are going to be in frame size as long yearlings.

    With that being said, the sculpture you just saw pictured would be representative of a well fed (meaning maximized on genetic potential as a result of post natal and weanling diet) yearling from the midwest. These ARE NOT browse feeding deer.

    For the larger deer, I used the SAME foam neck as you have already seen. I used the SAME foam shoulders, but increased width by 3/4" with a spacer. I've already grown the frame, now I'm growing the body. To that, I put a 7 1/2" head. The difference in head size, and that 3/4" difference in shoulder width makes a drastic change in appearance, even though many of the "critical" measurements are shared. I had a guy in a few days ago and had the two sculptures sitting side by side. I asked him, "That one's quite a bit bigger, isn't it?". To that he agreed. Then I took the tape measure to the two of them, showing him the shared measurements. The look of disbelief on his face was priceless.

    As soon as I get him under primer, I'll post pictures of the two together.

    Almost forgot,
    Uppity Hillbilly Dick Shun Airy
    Short yearling 12 to 18 months
    Long yearling 18 to 24 months
  18. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

    Greg, the lower one, that's what we call a sloth neck around here. Here's another one:

    You'll see why I will not accept given type sets.

    No hard feelings.
  19. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

    Deer Nephew Greg livbucks, here's another one with the head turned away from the camera.

    You get to classify this deer's neck.
    Is it
    A. giraffe neck
    B. sloth neck
    C. none of the above? If none of the above, explain your answer.

    Artwildcreate (Texas) had posted this photo, along with several others, for reference use some time back. I had asked him if they could be used in one of the other threads, and he granted his blessing. Bad news, this is the only one I could get to download and save.

    This photo has a ton of anatomy/conformation data in it. I will come back and dissect it with explanations after Greg makes his classification.
  20. Monte

    Monte Missouri fur-Limited hair-tanning

    Glen, the 31-1/4 is right on what I would have guessed and hoped for. I find it exciting that it was not 28-29 Big bucks being harvested are not browse deer either, They have the feeders and all the protien and minerals they can get. some of the browse deer in the Ozarks are now getting the benefit of feeders and food plots. I alter many forms by doing the same thing you do when upsizing, except, on most forms I buy are too wide in the shoulder and I split them and take some out. Most forms from suppliers that are 7-18-20 have too short of a neck for the deer I am working on.

    The one thing that some of our more observant clients say when I question them about the mounts is they think the shoulders are too wide and the brisket area does not look the same as a deer walking in the wild. I do think I know why, and I will have to do new models this fall after deer season in Kansas and Missouri.

    More later, Monte