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Aren't most deer forms incorrect at the base of the skull???

Discussion in 'Deer and Gameheads' started by SCT, Jun 21, 2008.

  1. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    My question still remains to be answered: Where DO that sum beech get all dem pitchers?"
     
  2. Shannon

    Shannon New Member

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    I've sat here for the last 20 minutes drinking coffee studying the above picture thinking "what the hell is he talking about"! This kinda reminds me of back in school days when the teacher would ask a question and you were afraid to answer because you didn't want to get the answer wrong, and look like a moron in front of the whole class, all the while hoping that someone would jump in and save your behind! I've overlooked the obvious before, and I'm sure I'll do it again, perhaps right now!

    Looking at the photo, the head shape looks not quite right. Either the forhead is more narrow than the average deer's, or the muzzle appears to be short and heavy. I think the problem is more in the forehead area though. From what I can tell , the outward eye tilt looks normal, so I don't think its the eyes.

    I'm gonna say the forhead is more narrow than the average deer. What environmental factors could influence this? Perhaps a narrow forhead is advantageous when browsing in deep snow. Yeah they dig the snow away, but they are still sticking their face right down in it. I really don't know the answer, but it's the best I could come up with. I have that sinking feeling I've just overlooked the obvious! Please others who are reading this jump in and save my arse!! ;D
     

  3. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Shannon, I'm always a moron in these issues and your analogy about school is a good one. Glen loves to bust our chops, but it's his modus operandi. I PRESUME he's exploiting the fact that from directly above a whitetails muzzle, the vision of the deer is unimpaired by eyebrows. Though most farm boys would recognize that all the ungulates have this physiology, the deer sculpting community still makes us think about those eye sets. This feature allows the grazers to graze and still have front acuity. How many mounted deer do you see that will pass that test.

    A few years back, I pointed out that pronghorns have a 270 degree field of vision and if you stand directly behind a prong, you will be able to see both it's eyeballs. You won't find that in many mounts either.
     
  4. Shannon

    Shannon New Member

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    I'm starting to think that it's next to impossible to have the "taxidermist's dream" form. After this discussion, I'm starting to think that most of the best forms we have out there are about as average as we're gonna get. My deer experience pales in comparison to you guys, but from what I've seen there are just too many variances in deer. At some point your gonna have to make form alterations when running into individual specimens that don't fit the norm. Especially if you want to make that deer look like when he was alive. Just my opinion, for what it's worth. I know I'm an ant among giants!
     
  5. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Don't you ever say that about yourself Shannon. We've all had our asses handed to us, but it wasn't because we were lurking trying to learn without participating. I think your responses on this issue are exceptional. I'm certainly no "giant" but I've the ego preventing me from ever being a pissant either.

    Your response is exactly what Bill was stating above. We'll NEVER be able to replicate perfectly the specimen that the Creator gave us. This whole thread, thanks to Glen proves the point that we are ALL mere mortals playing with dead animals. I've appreciated your inputs here. Now if we could just get EJ that interested....LMAO
     
  6. Shannon

    Shannon New Member

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    I see what your saying George, and now I feel I may have missed the mark with the narrow forhead thing. My face is starting to feel warm now, and I'm feeling like the whole class is laughing and pointing at me! I do hope Mr. Conley (the teacher) does give us the answer soon, so the class can move on with the subject, and my feeling of being a moron will subside! ;D I do like how he makes a guy think, and doesn't just give the answer, most lessons seem to sink in better that way!
     
  7. Shannon

    Shannon New Member

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    Yeah, this is sure great talking with you guys on deer. I know there are some other real talented guys on here as well, and it would be great to hear from them . Lets keep this rolling!!
     
  8. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    This thread has gave me "flash backs". "Back in the old days", when Buckeye was Buckeye, Cary Cochran and I use to shoot stuff like this back and forth at each other. There were times when discussions, that were based on our own personal observations, did get a little emphatic. That's when one of us would set out to prove each other right or wrong. There's two Score 1 for each of us after all those conversations, and both of those got burned into the memory bank.

    Hilton and I had a different way of handling things. We would just make fun of each other's weird deer...........

    .

    Uncle George is on the right track here, he has branched out with his thinking in comparative anatomy.

    Back to the last three photos, two photos show the same expressed trait, while one does not. WHAT is that expressed trait?
     
  9. cht

    cht New Member

    OK I guess nobody can see me raising my hand. Is it that the antlers are off to one side ???
     
  10. Shannon

    Shannon New Member

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    I looked at those pics again, and that picture of Holmes dead buck is now making me think I was right. That forehead sure looks narrow on that deer. I don't think Mr Conley is wanting us to be concerned with the eyes. If so, I don't think he would post a pic of a dead deer. But if the subject was dead or not wouldn't make a difference if he was wanting us to see something skeletal. Hell I don't know, I'm grabbing at straws! Even George has got me standing on chairs looking at mounts from above to check and see if I can see the eyeballs, which I can.
     
  11. Shannon

    Shannon New Member

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    I spoke too soon, I am the class moron!
     
  12. cht

    cht New Member

    Isn't there a place where you can turn to the back of the thread and find the answer ?
     
  13. Shannon

    Shannon New Member

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    Hah- Hah Chris, that was awesome! :D
     
  14. cht

    cht New Member

    Thanks that is how I got through school LOL
     
  15. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    You're so close if it was a snake it would bite ya!

    Kinda, sorta. Right before young Gasoline A$$'s remark if I remember right. There's a photo of a skull with a brick wall behind it.
     
  16. SCT

    SCT New Member

    Both the first photo and the third look very narrow to me through the forehead, and the dead deer looks longer throughout the head. But, I think the eyes do play a part here as in they may have slightly better prolifiral (sp?) vision. I've seen the first head down photo on here before and it made me think about the exposed part of the eye. I always thought that the eyelid should come to the edge of the eye to protect it from rain or snow but I can see one good reason why they need to view through their eyelids when the head is down. Good reason for the pupil to be level also. They are prey species and need every advantage so where a falcons' eyelid extends past the eye from a birds eye view the deer needs the forward vision. Does that make sense???

    Bill, we have the same thing here with our deer, some long and lenky, some short and stocky, and the average is what we have to start with because there's way too much work fitting them all. However, I think Glen is on his way to doing just that...Steve
     
  17. Shannon

    Shannon New Member

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    Here goes another stab in the dark. Is it on the skull the eye orbits aren't as pronounced on the top portion, next to the forehead region? This is shown in the first photo, and the last photo of holmes dead deer. Maybe that's why to me those deer seem to have abnormally narrow foreheads? ???
     
  18. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    See, Shannon, yer Uncle George and I had faith in you! We knew you could do it!

    Let me snap some of those Gasoline Ass Lines on the photos, and I'll be back.
     
  19. Shannon

    Shannon New Member

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    O.K. then what environmental factors would effect the eye orbits to not be as heavy or pronounced on some deer?
     
  20. cht

    cht New Member

    I was just going to ask that Shannon , and also isn't that more common in younger deer ??