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Aren't most deer forms incorrect at the base of the skull???

Discussion in 'Deer and Gameheads' started by SCT, Jun 21, 2008.

  1. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Huh-uh!

    I was just getting ready to ask YOU the same question. So the answer is..........?
     
  2. cht

    cht New Member

    I would imagine it would have something to do with watching for predators while feeding
     

  3. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    Or even walking. What predator could change the expressed traits of a population?
     
  4. cht

    cht New Member

    I don't know but I think it would be all predators of that species
     
  5. Shannon

    Shannon New Member

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    Man this post has got my mind racing! I was trying to finish grooming and tweaking a deer I mounted yesterday, but had to stop and get back on here. Does it have something to do with topography? Would deer need to see better above in hilly terrain?

    Like Chris stated, I always thought those smoother skulls with less pronounced eye sockets, and flatter forheads were on younger deer. Myself and afew of my cronies have discussed how we like euro skull mounts much better with real pronounced heavy, robust features, better than what we thought were younger deer with less pronounced skulls>
     
  6. Shannon

    Shannon New Member

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    Surely your not talking about man hunting deer from treestands. Have we been hunting deer from above long enough for deer to start evolving to deal with that issue?
     
  7. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    Surely I am.

    Selection is selection.

    Take it out of the genetic pool, it can't reproduce.
     
  8. SCT

    SCT New Member

    Here in UT we had a newly transplanted population of bighorn sheep get massacred by mountain lions. The beleif was that they had no experience with that problem where they came from. Good ol' Robert Redford allowed some serious predetor control for one year to give them a chance to survive.

    I for one don't believe deer can evolve that fast, my guess would be big kittys.
     
  9. SCT

    SCT New Member

    I didn't think of it that way.....SELECTION..... maybe???? I know we've changed behavior through selection but skull structure???
     
  10. Shannon

    Shannon New Member

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    I may be wrong, but I think treestand hunting mainly started as a mid west bowhunting thing. From my knowledge huntable populations and treestand use in the mid west probably started in the late 50's early 60's. I thought evolution took a very long time. Is 50-60 years long enough to start seeing this happen?
     
  11. SCT

    SCT New Member

    After thinking about this for a short time I would guess that selection should be looked at from a generation standpoint rather than time. In other words, in the last 50 years how many generations of deer have we gone through. Also, hunting pressure may have an effect on the change. Where I used to hunt jack rabbits as a kid, their general behavior was to hold fairly tight, say get up at 5-15 yards, and now, I've noticed the hares either hold until you kick them or get running way out in front of you. Mule deer have taken on the same behavior. Again though, we are talking about enviromental behavior. I guess one question might be is how often do you see a 5-7 year old buck with this narrow crown??? And, what about differences in does???
     
  12. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    Do we have power of suggestion here? The crown isn't narrow, it is wide across the zygomatics. You'll be able to visualize this better once you see it with those straight red lines to help create the proportions.
     
  13. Glen Conley

    Glen Conley KARMA GOOSE R.I.P. 2006-2006

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    Actually, I noticed this in horses a number of years ago When a person is in a hay mow, some horses look up at the slightest sound or movement, and some NEVER do.

    One horse I had was one of those kind that never did. One day I was about four feet over his head, and started calling to him. He kept pacing back and forth trying to find me on the ground, never once looking up.

    I got down to go take a look. There's a popular form that has been described more than once as when the eyes are mounted into it, it looks like the eyeballs are falling out. That would pretty much describe the same cant, angle, and brow that I was looking at in that horse.

    I also had the father and mother to this same horse, both of those two would look up in a heart beat. Both of them had pronounced zygomatics, which changes the downward cant of the eye, and the ability of the animal to raise it's brow. So those two would compare to the two deer with the pronounced zygomatics. The first horse I spoke of would be more like the zygomatics on Bill's deer, but Bill's deer's eye cant is still more horizontal than the horse's was.

    That experience made me "deer aware", and I started looking for correlations. Lots of times when a feller starts looking for answers, he'll find them. No look, no find. You've now been armed with the awarness. It's up to you to look.....or do nothing.

    A number of years ago, a California geneticist called selective breeding a form of accelerated evolution. Let me repeat, selection is selection. In this case, the ones that are selected for preserving the species were the ones that didn't give the hunter the opportunity for a shot.

    As far as setting the expressed traits you have to remember that the does carry half the genetic material, so these same principles of selection would apply. Remember the garden peas. How many generations would it take to once again set tall once tall had been crossed with short? Not long if you keep short out of the genetic pool.

    Here's the same three photos with all those lines. Accept my apology if I have ruined you to the point that you'll never look at a dead head in the same light as you have before.
     
  14. SCT

    SCT New Member

    Okay, I see the crown is wide behind the eyes. But it also looks like the wide crown means the eye angle moves forward. I know what selection is and agree that you could kill more and more of the "inferior" traits, but we're not talking line breeding when it comes to deer. I'm just wondering, how many generations would it take to show it to be a dominant trait? Yearling deer are by far the most selected prey. But they are not perishing because of their lack of top view, more by their inexperience. Of the deer that have hunter experience, the percentage of hunter success goes way down. It seems to me it would take more than 50 years or 50 generations to make a difference. It is possible though that it becomes more common with time. Maybe 50 years ago you would only see 1 out of 100 deer with this trait and today you may see 5 out of 100 with it. If that's the case then yes, I would agree that there has been some evolution. But, then again, it's all new to me.

    Glen, after persisting yeterday I was able to get to the right person in the fish and game to round me up a mule deer carcass. I may have one next week. It depends how picky I want to be as far as how old of a buck I'll settle for. Anyway, after I take a buch of measurements and photos I'm going to flesh out the skeleton. Can you show us how you do the skeleton preservation??? Thanks, Steve
     
  15. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Off issue a bit here, but most sources say that tree stand hunting evolved in the south where the undergrowth made hunting from the ground infeasible. That aside, however, the traditional predatory cats, starting with the sabretooth tiger hunted from above. Ken Walker did a bunch of research on this when he mounted a recreation of one. It was thought that the big cats lay in wait in trees along game trails. When a prey animal came under the limb, the cat would pounce on the their back, grab hold with their claws and drive the tusks down into the lungs of the animal. (Obviously choking it like todays big cats was not an option with those sabres hanging there. So I can see how easily the whitetail has adapted. And most of us have heard " a whitetail will never look up". Well, I've been busted way to often to buy into that horse manure. When I'm gun hunting does, I just sit and watch, waiting for that one smartassed one to look up into the tree. That's the one I take out first. I don't want them passing those genes too far. LOL
     
  16. SCT

    SCT New Member

    Does anyone have any real clear photos of the ala of the atlas on a mature buck??? Super short hair or skined??I need to focus on that area on my form..
     
  17. Bill Yox

    Bill Yox Well-Known Member

    Nope, no, nada, aint right. Im not going to accept that deer grew traits because of this new overhead predator called man. Sorry guys. Also, the reason the eye orbit is not pronounced on the live deer is simple...it still is. Its the upper swell thats absent in dead heads, along with the sunken eye. Being that Im a whopping 5'10" in my deer pen, and all my deer, boys, girls, young, old, all from OHIOH, ahem...they easily wrinkle the brow back and look right up at me while their heads are still down. Young narrow heads do it really easy, and old broad heads still do, just differently. take that live deer pic, sink the eye and remove the ruminant swell which is also the front whisker folicles pad, and you have the same look. TRUST me.

    I STILL say that Glen the mastermind is a most interesting guy to learn with, and George, I dont know where he gets all those pics either...although I HAVE laid on my back in deer poop with Cary to get some pics...

    NOW do you all see why I have started offering Bill Yox/live deer studies in my pen? The deer show us just how "not famous" some of us should be. We arent the topic of awe, the deer are! Lol.
     
  18. Shannon

    Shannon New Member

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    George_ I agree with you that whitetails look up. Anyone who thinks differently hasn't spent much time hunting them. I've been busted more than once by them looking up and seeing me in the tree as well. It's always been a goal of mine to do a pedestal mount of a whitetail busting you while they look up. In the mount, I hope to capture the overwhelming tension they exhibit the EXACT moment they realize that there is something out of place in the tree. It's never a good feeling being busted while your hunting, regardless if you intend to harvest the animal or not, but I kinda like the look of tension they exhibit when they're nearly under you and look up. Two years ago I was busted by a dandy at about ten yds. He stopped, and snapped his head up right at me. He took three steps backwards, the whole time maintaining eye contact before he turned and ran. The tension he displayed during those three steps was UNBELIEVABLE! That's the feeling I want to convey. I just have to figure out the mechanics of the mount to make it seem like it's a view from a treestand. The belief deer don't look up is a crock of manure!

    Regardless of where treestand hunting evolved, everyone knows that us mid west guys are some of the best treestand bowhunters the world has ever seen, even if we get picked off once in awhile doing so! ;D
     
  19. Shannon

    Shannon New Member

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    Mr. Yox- If I wasn't so far away, and had the coin, I'd be on a plane in a heartbeat to be in your deer pen with you. Back when I took Joe Meder's class, one of the coolest things was to be in the pen with the deer. I wish then I was fully aware of all the vast things to look at in dealing with deer. At the time I was just in awe of being so close to the coolest animals on earth! I do have access to a buck, doe, and fawns owned by the state conservation commission, at a nature center, about 15 -20 miles from me, but my pics aren't that impressive taken through the fence. I'm sure they wouldn't like it if I jumped the fence and started clicking away with the camera! I feel I'm really to old to being going to jail for photographing deer! ;D

    Every year I always say I'm gonna take the camera to the tree with me, and photograph the deer I pass up, but as the rut approaches I always end up in hunting mode, and leave the camera behind. I can't seem to get over the mindset that while taking pictures, Mr Big will show up and I'll be there holding a camera instead of my bow!

    It really has been fun learning here with ALL of you! This thread has been fantastic with all the shared info. The only thing I can say is I wish there were more posts like this one. Just when you think it's gonna die, someone adds something new. I said it before, but thank you, I've learned alot about deer these last couple of days!
     
  20. cht

    cht New Member

    Shannon ,you are more than welcome to come and sit in my deer pen. Better plan on sitting for a while, they alwase seem to move right when you take the pic. I spend way to much time in my pen, I have 3 deer that love to lick the camera lens. Not to often I get a good pic like this