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600 .lb black bear

Discussion in 'Lifesize Mammals' started by Henry J., Jul 26, 2008.

  1. Henry J.

    Henry J. New Member

    600 lb. 85'' nose to vent ! Just mounted it i did not get any finish work yet. The guy in the pic. shot it .
     
  2. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Did you alter the form? It looks as if a smaller form has been lengthened.
     

  3. Henry J.

    Henry J. New Member

    YA, they don't make 85'' black bear froms !
     
  4. choo choo charlie

    choo choo charlie I feel pretty good for the way I feel

    I am far from being a bear expert but I think I would have added girth to make the form fit, it would have looked better to me.
     
  5. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Henry, if your customer is happy, then so be it, but I assure you that they do make 85 inch bears if they are truly 85 inches long. It may not be a black bear, but it will be 85 inches long and once the picture was lightened up, I see some serious problems.

    I always warn people about adding length to any form without correspondingly adding width and height. Nature has a pretty standard blueprint on anatomy and even when the size changes, the "look" doesn't. Oftentimes, people do not stretch the bear widthwise enough and take the length for granted. Even when I take the measurements off a downed bear, I'm hesitant. Let the hide tell you. If you look at the length AND the width and they don't match a form, there's a much better liklihood that you've not stretched the bear in the proper directions. I've mounted a couple bruisers in my time and I suspect that bear was perhaps 75 or 76 inches in length with a girth of about 60 inches. I'm ASSUMING you took a 65 inch black bear and lengthened it to 85 inches while leaving the girth at 44 inches. That would also mean that the head is much too small for that bear. You'd have been far ahead to use a small/medium grizzly form, remove the hump, narrow the shoulders, spread the butt and rid that dished out head to make it more "black bear" looking. You may have even found a changeout head that fit closely. Six hundred pound blacks are just pigs and they LOOK like big fat pigs. Their bellies are close to the ground even if their legs are long anatomically.
     
  6. Henry J.

    Henry J. New Member

    thanks George .THE GIRTH IS 62 '' NOW AND WAS WHEN IT WAS KILLED & THE LENGTH WAS 85'' WHEN IT WAS KILLED ! I WAS WITH HIM WHEN HE SHOT IT . WE DID NOT ALTER THE HEAD AND IT'S A BLACK BEAR HEAD . WE DID ORDER A CHANGE OUT HEAD THAT FIT LIKE A GLOVE ! WE DID PUT A PA MOUTH CUP IN IT . MAYBE YOU SHOULD HAVE A TALK WITH GOD & TELLL HIM HE MADE IT WRONG LOL. BUT THEN YOU WOULD BE TALKING TO YOUR SELF LOL, GOT TO LOVE GEORGE !
     
  7. ChadF

    ChadF Active Member

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    Henry
    i think it looks great
    your customer should be thrilled with it. I mount alot of bears, from western ny and PA so i know how the big boys are, everyone is different
     
  8. choo choo charlie

    choo choo charlie I feel pretty good for the way I feel

    I know I will regret his but,,,, Henry I don't think that George was putting your knowledge or ability in question, he was simply giving you what you asked for in the first place,,,,, an opinion.
    You have got to respect his opinion and his knowledge of he subject and at least thank him for his input even if you don't agree with it.
    I may not agree with a few things that George Say's but I do value his opinion on any subject.
    He was around long before the advent of one size fits all paint them up taxidermy.

    Charlie
     
  9. Henry J.

    Henry J. New Member

    I DID NOT ASK GEORGE FOR ANYTHING ! JUST POST A PIC. OF A 600lb.BEAR MOST PEOPLE NEVER SEE BLACK BEAR THAT SIZE IS ALL . BUT I ALSO KNOW ANYTIME YOU PUT OR SAY ANYTHING ON HERE SOMEONE THINKS THERE BETTER !!!!!!!! I CAN TAKE IT TO A POINT !
     
  10. choo choo charlie

    choo choo charlie I feel pretty good for the way I feel

    LOL, I admitted right off the bat I wasn't an expert,,,,keeps me out of trouble!
    That is the reason I said I would probably regret saying anything cause every time I do someone comes along who can do it better or already has.
     
  11. jasonb

    jasonb I think I'll keep her

    Hey Henry your caps lock is stuck. Please you don't have to yell.LOL
     
  12. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Look Henry, if you're looking for someone to blow roses up your ass, post your pictures on a site where taxidermists don't live. I told you, if your customer's happy,then hurrah for you. BUT, you post it on the Taxidermy NET then I'm going to see it and if it looks dorky, I'm going to tell you. This ain't my first rodeo and I suspect you wanted people who AREN'T as familiar with how a live bear looks to "ooh" and "aah" over your work. I'm sorry, but the bear looks retarded. I've done some exceptionally large black bears over the years including mountain grizzlies, coastal Browns, and recently I had 3 blacks that went close to or over 700 pounds come to me from Vancouver Island. I don't give a DAMN what your tape measure said, that bear was either fatter than you claim or shorter than you claim. By stretching the form as you did, you made it's back legs look like a dwarf weenie bear. The head shows a muzzle too short and the expression looks like its suffering gas pains. I was just being nice with my first comments, now I'm being honest.

    Now you can pout, hold your breath and turn blue, but people telling you the bear "looks good" are NOT doing you or your customers any favors. And when you POST a picture here, whether you ask for it or not, it's GOING TO BE CRITIQUED. We are all taxidermists here and we all have our own opinions as to what looks good and what doesn't. If you've perfected the art and never make any mistakes, then don't post pictures of your work.
     
  13. Henry J.

    Henry J. New Member

    GEORGE , CRITIQUE THIS . YOU CAN USE A MIRROR FOR REFERENCE ,LOL THE TAPE DOES NOT LIE. YOUR WRONG!!!! YOU MIGHT BE A BIG SHOT, BUT THIS TIME YOUR WRONG.
     
  14. artwildcreate

    artwildcreate Don't look at me.....

    Whether that is the way the bear looked when he was alive or not, the mount looks goofy and out of proportion. As an artist and a professional, which I am sure you are not much of either, you should have realized that it was out of prorportion. Then you should have pulled out your "artistic license", and made the bear look proportional and anatomically correct.

    The hide was probably poorly tanned to where it was out of whack after the tanning process.. You and your buddies should have the stretched the heck out of the girth until you had it back to where it should have been...
     
  15. Henry J.

    Henry J. New Member

    IT HAD 60 '' GIRT WHEN IT WAS JUST SKINNED IT'S 62'' NOW !
     
  16. I brand new here and have been lurking for quite some time. I'm a novice taxi and the bear even looks out of proportion to me.

    I have a theory. Is Henry J really NickyG? Both seem to be in love with the caps and their "masterpiece" mounts. Both get in a huff when someone critiques them.
     
  17. George

    George The older I get, the better I was.

    Look Henry, we're never going to convince you, so this is for everyone else. When you get a bear on the ground, just skin it. Forget about the measurements; they don't count. A mature black bear adds and loses up to 30% of it's body mass each year. A spring bear is going to be skinny because he's used up his body reserves. BUT HIS SKIN DOESN'T KNOW THAT. Same goes with a fall bear. You never know the potential and if it's been met or not. Skin the bear out and send it to a professional tannery.

    When you get it back, get at LEAST one buddy, preferably 3 and get on either side and pull hell out of that hide. Pull it till you groan and sweat. Then put two on the head and two on the tail and do the same thing. As a final step, go back to the side and pull there. Now measure your hide. Measure TWO circumferences. One behind the front legs and one around the gut. Then measure the length from the nose tip to the BASE of the tail. Finally, measure the E/N. Before you do anything else, you pick up your supply catalog and look at the forms you desire. Find one that CLOSELY matches that. If a form is longer and skinnier, then go and stretch it lengthwise to that measurement and then measure girth and see where that fits. If the GIRTH is too small, pull the width and then see what the length is. Now most importantly, see just how close the E/N measurement is. ALL THREE NEED TO BE CLOSE. If they aren't, go into the grizzly forms. The less alterations you make the better.

    When you get your form in, put it together and then measure the lower leg LENGTH on the form. Most sculptors make their legs too long. Test fit your skin and be sure, but a rough idea is that the lower leg bone is almost the same length as the upper leg bone. Had nature made them differently, one bone would have snapped from the pressures greater on it than on the other (Ken Walker taught me that.) Then look at the neck. The spine forms the neck and carnivores have a straightline neck from the back. Some sculptors give you an ungulate skeleton where the neck sags once it clears the shoulders. If your form isn't straight or arced up from the shoulder, it's wrong and needs to be corrected. A black bear is like a fat man. He's going to have narrow shoulders and a big fat butt. They store most of their fat on the back, belly and butt just like us old fat men. Some sculptors like to give them the shoulders of a linebacker. That's not correct and they will need to be altered. If it's a grizzly form, obviously the hump has to go. Try a changeout head if possible, but if not, that facial silhouette is going to require changing. FIT THE SKIN ON THE HEAD. If the skin flops, the head is too narrow for the hide. Split the head and put a wedge in the back side to widen it. Then foam it and sand it to match the hide. The head should fit snug inside that skin. Not TIGHT, snug. Then cut out the ear holes. Bears ears set well inside the muscle and fat on the skull. Occasionally you see a bear looking like a jackrabbit, but the "normal" look or the aggressive look won't have them standing open like Lamborgini doors either.

    NEVER EVER LENGHTEN THE FORM WITHOUT A CORRESPONDING INCREASE IN GIRTH. Bears have the same number of spinal segments and their legs attach to the same segments whether it weighs 8 pounds or 800 pounds. If you get in a 500-700 pound black bear, it's going to look like a big fat hog. The skeleton doesn't grow past the optimum range of its heredity, but it's weight will be extreme.

    Now to you Henry. I'm no "big shot" and certainly no high caliber talent, but my eyes are still good and I know what animals SHOULD look like. In 50 years I suppose I've done most of them a couple times over and I said, this ain't my first rodeo. BTW, your deer butt is poorly groomed, the orifices are reversed or she's either got gangrene or she's been eating blueberries. Sort of reminds me what your bear looks like.
     
  18. Mike B.

    Mike B. New Member

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    OK George I usually agree with most of your post but that does not look like a poorly groomed deer butt to me. I looks like a stinky Coyote butt. But you have been at this longer than I have. ;D
     
  19. Greg Waite

    Greg Waite Active Member

    I may regret this but here's one for you George. Critique away.... I'd tell you to be honest and not sugar coat things but we both know that goes without saying. 650#ish 84" 63"

    [​IMG]

    And I also thought it was a coyote.
     
  20. Henry J.

    Henry J. New Member

    THAT BEAR IS 1 '' SHORTER & 1'' MORE IN GIRTH ! THAT BEAR VERY,VERY NICE! GEORGE I HAVE TO SAY YOUR LAST POST IS NOT FALLING ON DEAF EARS, I LIKED IT ! NOW ,AS FOR YOUR YEARS & EYES IT'S A COYOTE HA,HA,HA YOU OLD FART . THANKS YOU, I DO RESPECT YOU !